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06-26-2011, 07:10 AM   #406
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
I think you are missing the point of the appeal the X100 has for a lot of people. It's the fact that it's only one lens. For example I feel very liberated doing photography with only a 35mm lens.
I do understand that appeal. I like primes, and although I tend to carry several, I also appreciate the appeal of going into the field with only one, so there's no thought to changing on the fly; and even of not having to decide which lens that one will be. That said, I expect people will use the Q that way too: they'll buy it and only own one lens. Or they'll own several but only carry one.

My point is that the X100 isn't part of a system, and so, no matter how nice it is, it won't build brand loyalty in the same way. Once they have a Q-mount body, some people will be tempted to buy more lenses for it. Once they have some Q-mount lenses, they will be more inclined for their next body to be Q-mount also. That's how it works. If Pentax had copied the X100, then they'd still not have a strategy for the future.

The issue for me is, if you had to design a new mount now that you'd still be using in 20 or 30 year, what should it look like? What improvements in technology should you expect over that time? And the answer, I think, is small. To be small enough to look sensible in the future, it has to look stupidly small today.

06-26-2011, 07:26 AM   #407
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kenn100D Quote
There is no serious problem with the Q. Q is for somebody else. It is not branded by Pentax as Pro/Semi Pro/ but just the smallest ILC in the world. Also, would you sacrifice your company by aiming the smallest ILC camera with so so image quality?
I think not. So Pentax put enough time to this camera to be the world smallest ILC with the best image quality that the sensor can produce. So that's why the price come out as it is. Not the price of any P&S.

As for the toy camera effect, Tell me a serious photographer will like to have a toy camera effect that come out through a lens rather than software based effect.

Q is for somebody else
Who is this person...Where is this person?...Inside mind of HOYA? Virtual person?



Your post is mixed with thesises of different value.

1. You says It is not branded by Pentax as Pro/Semi Pro/ but just the smallest ILC in the world, but then Tell me a serious photographer will like to have a toy camera effect that come out through a lens rather than software based effect


Do you understand that if Pentax Q is not PRO, serious photograher won't use this camera and TOY lenses with fixed aperture for effects.
If it's camera for unsophisticated user, it's easy to use in-camera effects.


By the way -
There is 30-40 USD variant for TOY camera effects.
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20110614_452949.html
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20110624_455707.html

2. So Pentax put enough time to this camera to be the world smallest ILC with the best image quality that the sensor can produce.

I tnink that "To be smallest for to be simply smallest" is not outstanding achievement. And it's unreal to be with best image quality between top compact cameras from another brands with bigger sensor and m4/3 cameras.
New Olympus is close to Pentax Q dimensions, but has MUCH bigger sensor.
Top-compacts has 1/1.65 sensors and 1/1.7" sensors. Faster lens. How to be better with tiny sensor and slower lenses?

Last edited by ogl; 06-26-2011 at 07:54 AM.
06-26-2011, 08:08 AM   #408
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QuoteOriginally posted by Macario Quote
I am constantly amazed by people who write off everything Pentax releases if it isn't excactly what they want from Pentax
Release don't have to be exactly what we want, but I think a sensor smaller than some cell phone cameras isn't even remotely close to exactly what we wanted.

QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
While ogl does overstate his points, I think the intersection of people who both are ready to accept a 1/2.33'' sensor and want interchangeable lenses to go along with that is extremely small. Time may prove me wrong.
Agreed.
06-26-2011, 10:57 AM   #409
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QuoteOriginally posted by 1 Snap Music! Quote
"I wonder if Pentax (Hoya?) did any market research for this product with actual photographers."

I'm wondering who they're trying to sell this to also.

Novices? Perhaps, since they may not know any better.

Casual snappers? I don't think so since they would hopefully already know about sensor size and such.

Vanity/Fashion shoppers? Maybe. And, that's a big maybe, because the cam doesn't look that good to me.

I don't see why anyone would buy this over something like the Sony NEX-3 (with 16mm F2.8 Lens: $549.99) which is just about the same size with much better image quality!
There will be a market for this in Japan, if not a big seller worldwide.
IMO the Holga, PEN, and even the multi-coloured K-x users will have their ears pricked up for this one.

06-26-2011, 12:29 PM   #410
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One silver lining to the Q is that I went and bought a K5 because of it.
Why?
I have a K7 but was willing to wait until the K3 came out to replace it. I thought the EVIL camera that was coming could compliment my K7 with some really cool video capabilities and full manual video control like the Canon DSLRs out there. I thought whatever mirror less camera that was coming would use the K mount or maybe the Auto 110 mount. I thought Pentax would give me a "Video" box with 1080p since I don't really need a mirror for video. Maybe something with Dual SD cards and HDMI out that I could set to some rails or a focus follower system while using my DA/FA/K lenses with.

I was hoping for a small size video-centric offering that could travel with my K7

If the mirror less camera I am describing doesn't come, and the Q is the EVIL camera, then it's a fail.

Since I have a big trip coming up, I decided to get the K5 and not wait anymore.

Last edited by LaurenOE; 06-26-2011 at 12:35 PM.
06-26-2011, 01:01 PM   #411
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
I think the intersection of people who both are ready to accept a 1/2.33'' sensor and want interchangeable lenses to go along with that is extremely small
I would wager to think that people interested in the Q system would be more interested in the compactness and image quality of the camera with these interchangeable lenses than in the sensor size.

Think about it - why would Pentax release a new product, and a new system, at this kind of price range, if it could not deliver in the IQ department compared to its rival products?
06-26-2011, 01:09 PM   #412
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Think about it - why would Pentax release a new product, and a new system, at this kind of price range, if it could not deliver in the IQ department compared to its rival products?
What do you define as its rivals?
06-26-2011, 01:09 PM - 1 Like   #413
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QuoteOriginally posted by MMVIII Quote
btw.
I don't know if this has been posted here, but here are some slides from the presentation which show some considerations and analyses by the manufacturer of the cam, just for comparison to "analyses" here

- if someone can read japanese it would be probably helpful -

dc.watch translated page
Thanks a lot - that site has some really interesting photos of slides from a presentation.

I can't quite make out all the characters as the pics are a bit blurry, but this slide explains the market that Pentax is trying to address:


According to this, 71% of the people surveyed about their views of digital cameras say they want to be able to take beautiful pictures, but 35% say they find an SLR too big and too heavy, and 32% hard to carry (the two bars outlined in blue). The bottom bar is about something (usage?) being "difficult"

There's another slide that shows compact camera sales flattening out, so it seems Pentax is trying to address people who want to upgrade from a compact camera but find a traditional DSLR "too heavy", "too big", "too difficult to carry" and "too difficult to use."

There's another slide which I can't read properly that shows 67% are happy to take pictures using an LCD screen as viewfinder, a massive 60% want the ability to swap lenses, 61% want the ability to control camera parameters, and only 47% want very high quality lenses.

There's another slide after that which is even harder to read but it's about secondary issues like appearance, colour, individuality, ...

Sounds like Pentax have done the marketing research well, and are designing a camera to what they perceive to be a gap in the market.

Well, I clearly am in the target market segment - I want to step up from my iPhone and Canon compact, but I find the K-5 too big, too heavy, too cumbersome to carry. I want the ability to swap lens and camera controls, and willing to sacrifice image and lens quality. I do care about a camera that looks elegant, and reflects my personality.

There's also some interesting slides that show that Pentax is positioning the Q as a "miniaturised" K-r - at 1/3 the weight and halving of some dimensions.

There are also some slides comparing image quality with three "competitor" cameras - I would love to know what Competitors A, B, C are but I wouldn't be surprised if A was NEX, B was Panasonic and C was Olympus. I noticed Pentax are claiming superior quality to B and C and didn't compare with A.


Last edited by Christine Tham; 06-26-2011 at 01:16 PM.
06-26-2011, 01:16 PM   #414
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
Apple is a completely different market to anything else, and it always makes me chuckle when people think "Company X could be like Apple!" Apple sells a "lifestyle," not an actual product.
But Apple got there by making products people wanted. Not that they didn't make mistakes... Cube, Mobile Me, and most recently FInal Cut Pro X come to mind. Don't you think that Pentax would kill to sell a "lifestyle?"

But to go back to my original point, of which you replied to the reply to... Sometimes companies make decisions and take chances that I don't get. Sometimes I am surprised by the results. I'm a DSLR user and don't get the appeal of interchangeable lenses on a pocket sized camera... But I'm not supposed to get it. I'm not the target consumer.
06-26-2011, 01:34 PM   #415
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QuoteOriginally posted by mediaslinky Quote
But Apple got there by making products people wanted. Not that they didn't make mistakes... Cube, Mobile Me, and most recently FInal Cut Pro X come to mind. Don't you think that Pentax would kill to sell a "lifestyle?"

But to go back to my original point, of which you replied to the reply to... Sometimes companies make decisions and take chances that I don't get. Sometimes I am surprised by the results. I'm a DSLR user and don't get the appeal of interchangeable lenses on a pocket sized camera... But I'm not supposed to get it. I'm not the target consumer.
Pentax is trying to be a lifestyle camera company - just look at the Japanese marketing brochure for the K-x and K-r - those cameras are targeted towards very specific types of people: arts student, housewife, young urban professional ...

And the Q is similar targeted towards a very specific (but hopefully large) segment - which happens to include me.

Dare I suggest most of the people on this forum are apparently not in the target segment - judging by their comments. But that's okay - I for one can't quite see what the attraction of an iPad is, but I acknowledge many people like it.
06-26-2011, 02:09 PM   #416
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It will be interesting to see the actual performance of this camera. It has the same sensor size as my wife's Canon SD880, which takes very nice photos in good light. While it would have been nice if the sensor were at least the size of the upscale P&S offerings like the Panasonic LX5 or Canon G12, I wrongly thought that Pentax would have to go full-frame to get the low light performance of the K5. Maybe this will work.
06-26-2011, 02:12 PM   #417
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
What do you define as its rivals?
Other high end P&S/bridge/hybrid cameras that are targeted to the same audience.
This is addressed well by Christine's slide above and subsequent summary.
06-26-2011, 02:17 PM   #418
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QuoteOriginally posted by mediaslinky Quote
But Apple got there by making products people wanted. Not that they didn't make mistakes... Cube, Mobile Me, and most recently FInal Cut Pro X come to mind. Don't you think that Pentax would kill to sell a "lifestyle?"

But to go back to my original point, of which you replied to the reply to... Sometimes companies make decisions and take chances that I don't get. Sometimes I am surprised by the results. I'm a DSLR user and don't get the appeal of interchangeable lenses on a pocket sized camera... But I'm not supposed to get it. I'm not the target consumer.
Apple got there by making people believe they needed the products apple was making.
06-26-2011, 02:20 PM   #419
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QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
Thanks a lot - that site has some really interesting photos of slides from a presentation.

I can't quite make out all the characters as the pics are a bit blurry, but this slide explains the market that Pentax is trying to address:


According to this, 71% of the people surveyed about their views of digital cameras say they want to be able to take beautiful pictures, but 35% say they find an SLR too big and too heavy, and 32% hard to carry (the two bars outlined in blue). The bottom bar is about something (usage?) being "difficult"

There's another slide that shows compact camera sales flattening out, so it seems Pentax is trying to address people who want to upgrade from a compact camera but find a traditional DSLR "too heavy", "too big", "too difficult to carry" and "too difficult to use."

There's another slide which I can't read properly that shows 67% are happy to take pictures using an LCD screen as viewfinder, a massive 60% want the ability to swap lenses, 61% want the ability to control camera parameters, and only 47% want very high quality lenses.

There's another slide after that which is even harder to read but it's about secondary issues like appearance, colour, individuality, ...

Sounds like Pentax have done the marketing research well, and are designing a camera to what they perceive to be a gap in the market.

Well, I clearly am in the target market segment - I want to step up from my iPhone and Canon compact, but I find the K-5 too big, too heavy, too cumbersome to carry. I want the ability to swap lens and camera controls, and willing to sacrifice image and lens quality. I do care about a camera that looks elegant, and reflects my personality.

There's also some interesting slides that show that Pentax is positioning the Q as a "miniaturised" K-r - at 1/3 the weight and halving of some dimensions.

There are also some slides comparing image quality with three "competitor" cameras - I would love to know what Competitors A, B, C are but I wouldn't be surprised if A was NEX, B was Panasonic and C was Olympus. I noticed Pentax are claiming superior quality to B and C and didn't compare with A.
Christine -- thank you for looking at and summarizing those slides for us. I think they show a company responding to a perceived gap in the market and they clearly think they're on to something here. There are a lot of X factors though, naturally: the integrity of their market research, when that research was performed, the actual quality of the lenses and sensor for the Q, marketing strategies and store presence, etc.

I am definitely not the target market for the Q, but I hope one exists. We'll just have to see how it plays out.
06-26-2011, 03:29 PM   #420
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I got some marketing paperwork about the Q at the show, it made for some pretty interesting reading actually. I'll see if I can scan it in tonight and show you, it explains a bit more about the decision making behind the Q if I remember correctly.
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