New lens ricoh patent for 1/1.7" sensor...

wanderography · 11-06-2012, 10:11 PM

Looks like the Q2 could have a slightly larger sensor, or as the article states maybe a new GXR mount...

EDIT: completely forgot to add the link

http://photorumors.com/2012/11/02/ricohs-patent-for-a-5-3-22mm-f2-3-5-lens-f...nsor/#comments

Quote:

Ricoh filed patent 2012211956 in Japan for a 5.3-22mm f/2-3.5 lens designed for a 1/1.7" sensor (24-100mm equivalent). The lens design contains 11 elements in 8 groups, including two aspherical elements. This lens could be designed for the Pentax Q system, which has a 1/2.3" sensor, or for a new GXR module.

Last edited by wanderography; 11-06-2012 at 10:21 PM.

JinDesu · 11-06-2012, 10:17 PM

Q2? The Q10 just came out!

wanderography · 11-06-2012, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by JinDesu

Q2? The Q10 just came out!

Ya, but during the announcement they announced they were already working on a successor, the Q10 was more of downgrade really. I'm worried my sonnetar might not work on a larger sensor...

vonBaloney · 11-06-2012, 10:23 PM

It makes no sense to enlarge the sensor on an existing system, unless the existing lenses were planned for that...

JinDesu · 11-06-2012, 10:24 PM

That would be a good question...

wanderography · 11-06-2012, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by vonBaloney

It makes no sense to enlarge the sensor on an existing system, unless the existing lenses were planned for that...

I can remember earlier that someone had pointed out with facts that the Q lenses can support a larger sensor, like I said I just hope my sonnetar can work with a larger sensor, it was originally designed for MFT so hoping it kept the larger circle... But hey, isn't the 1/1.7" what is commonly found in consumer superzooms? and it is a fast 24 - 100, maybe for a new type of GRD...

Adam · 11-06-2012, 11:11 PM

The GXR has a bunch of different sensors, this could be yet another camera module...

hks_kansei · 11-06-2012, 11:16 PM

Call me silly.

But how does that measurement work?

1/1.7"

I presume it's a fraction of an inch? (being one "one, one point seventh of an inch")

ie: 14.94mm ?

or 3/5 inch? (give or take)

(sorry, not particularly familiar with imperial measurement, and used to seeing only whole numbers in a fraction, if you're using decimals in a fraction, just use a decimal and be done with it!)

wanderography · 11-06-2012, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by Adam

The GXR has a bunch of different sensors, this could be yet another camera module...

Thats what I'm kinda leaning more towards too, during the R&D interview at photokina they had mentioned briefly Q mount and the GXR, maybe this is what they came up with for super telephoto and super macro, as a stand alone camera well you have the Q, but would be genius for the GXR with the interchangeable sensor modules.

Pablom · 11-07-2012, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by hks_kansei

But how does that measurement work?

1/1.7"

I presume it's a fraction of an inch? (being one "one, one point seventh of an inch")

ie: 14.94mm ?

or 3/5 inch? (give or take)

that is correct

JPT · 11-07-2012, 07:57 AM

This patent probably has nothing to do with the Pentax Q. It was filed by Ricoh in March 2011, before the merger. It looks suitable for a replacement for the S10 unit for the GXR or a successor to the GX200 compact. This sensor size is commonly used by Ricoh and never by Pentax.

snostorm · 11-07-2012, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by hks_kansei

Call me silly.

But how does that measurement work?

1/1.7"

I presume it's a fraction of an inch? (being one "one, one point seventh of an inch")

ie: 14.94mm ?

or 3/5 inch? (give or take)

(sorry, not particularly familiar with imperial measurement, and used to seeing only whole numbers in a fraction, if you're using decimals in a fraction, just use a decimal and be done with it!)

Hi hks_kansei,

The fractional inch format "standard" for digital sensors is a holdover from video in the '80s, and represents the measurement of the outside diameter of the glass envelope of the tube in those video cameras. Even then, it was a loose "standard", more of a convenience, and the number actually doesn't really relate to exact sensor measurements -- the sensors were just designed to fit within the image circles of the existing lenses. I believe these format designations were kept because lenses were already designated to be compatible with the fractional inch formats, and by using the old designations, no mental acrobatics would be needed to match the existing lenses to the new digital sensors.

I wouldn't bother to try to understand this, just accept it as it is and look up the corresponding sensor measurements when needed.

Scott

SOldBear · 11-07-2012, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by snostorm

I wouldn't bother to try to understand this, just accept it as it is and look up the corresponding sensor measurements when needed.

Wise advice,

I actually took the time and effort to understand it at some point in time, then forgot about it 3 months later. Finally I came to my sense and gave up.

snostorm · 11-07-2012, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by vonBaloney

It makes no sense to enlarge the sensor on an existing system, unless the existing lenses were planned for that...

Hi vB,

My understanding is that the Q was designed to work with a number of different sensor formats. This was reported by Japanese photo bloggers when Pentax did a presentation for them in Osaka preceding the official release. Remember that one of the comments at the announcement was that the Q was a camera waiting for the right sensor, and at the bloggers' presentation, apparently someone asked if 1/1.7" or even 1/1.6" sensors could have been used, and the Pentax representatives answered affirmatively, and said that this was why the lenses were engraved with only their true FLs rather than with 35mm EQ FLs.

At the time the decision was made to go into production, the 1/2.3" 12MP BSI CMOS was the best sensor by some margin, and then-current 1/1.7" and 1/1.63" format cameras were still using 3 year old 10 MP CCDs. Also, in 1/2.3" format, sensors were being developed quickly -- by the time the Q was announced, a new 16 MP 1/2.3" BSI CMOS sensor had already been released by Sony.

If they decided to go with a new BSI CMOS 1/1.7" sensor in a later model, the lenses will still be compatible, they'd just have a wider FOV, which would please some and disappoint others as the crop factor would be reduced to @ 4.55x from 5.58x. The 01 Prime would go from 47mm EQ to 39mm EQ, a little short, but still barely in the "normal" range. The 02 Zoom would go from a 28-83 EQ to a 23-68 EQ, still a reasonably useful range. The new 06 tele zoom would become a 68-205 EQ. The FE would just get wider. . .

I don't know that they would go this route though. The difference between the two formats' IQ is just not that great IMO, and adapted lenses which Pentax is just getting around to exploiting (just about all are teles on the Q) would lose reach. Though there are now more cameras using the larger format, there are nowhere near the numbers using 1/2.3", so future development of the format would be slower, and I don't know if the slight IQ gains would be a good tradeoff against faster future development.

This is all useless speculation though. . . we'll see what happens when it happens. . .

Scott

vonBaloney · 11-07-2012, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by snostorm

If they decided to go with a new BSI CMOS 1/1.7" sensor in a later model, the lenses will still be compatible, they'd just have a wider FOV, which would please some and disappoint others as the crop factor would be reduced to @ 4.55x from 5.58x. The 01 Prime would go from 47mm EQ to 39mm EQ, a little short, but still barely in the "normal" range. The 02 Zoom would go from a 28-83 EQ to a 23-68 EQ, still a reasonably useful range. The new 06 tele zoom would become a 68-205 EQ. The FE would just get wider. . .

That's the other reason it doesn't make sense to change it -- now all your lenses have changed FOV. Seems like madness...

11-06-2012, 10:11 PM	#1
wanderography Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Hayward, California, USA Posts: 567	New lens ricoh patent for 1/1.7" sensor... Looks like the Q2 could have a slightly larger sensor, or as the article states maybe a new GXR mount... EDIT: completely forgot to add the link http://photorumors.com/2012/11/02/ricohs-patent-for-a-5-3-22mm-f2-3-5-lens-f...nsor/#comments Quote: Ricoh filed patent 2012211956 in Japan for a 5.3-22mm f/2-3.5 lens designed for a 1/1.7" sensor (24-100mm equivalent). The lens design contains 11 elements in 8 groups, including two aspherical elements. This lens could be designed for the Pentax Q system, which has a 1/2.3" sensor, or for a new GXR module. Last edited by wanderography; 11-06-2012 at 10:21 PM.

11-06-2012, 11:11 PM	#7
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 49,221	The GXR has a bunch of different sensors, this could be yet another camera module... Adam PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide \| Site Help \| My Photography) PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Impact resistant lens cap patent from Ricoh	LFLee	Pentax News and Rumors	15	05-25-2012 12:53 AM
For Sale - Sold: Pentax M 28mm 3.5, Sears 55mm 1.4, Ricoh P 50mm 1.7, Chinon 50mm 1.9 (Worldwid	causey	Sold Items	17	01-08-2011 11:14 AM
For Sale - Sold: Ricoh Rikenon P 1:1.7 50mm lens (Worldwide)	kp0c	Sold Items	5	12-19-2010 05:53 PM
For Sale - Sold: Ricoh Rikenon XR 50mm f/1.7 lens - PK	Nick Siebers	Sold Items	9	07-14-2010 12:08 PM
Ricoh Rikenon XR f50mm 1:1.7 White Ball	kwetiaw	Pentax SLR Lens Discussion	6	02-22-2010 05:53 AM

11-06-2012, 10:17 PM	#2
JinDesu Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: New York City Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,632	Q2? The Q10 just came out!

11-06-2012, 10:21 PM	#3
wanderography Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Hayward, California, USA Posts: 567 Original Poster	Originally posted by JinDesu Q2? The Q10 just came out! Ya, but during the announcement they announced they were already working on a successor, the Q10 was more of downgrade really. I'm worried my sonnetar might not work on a larger sensor...

11-06-2012, 10:23 PM	#4
vonBaloney Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Savannah, GA Posts: 5,357	It makes no sense to enlarge the sensor on an existing system, unless the existing lenses were planned for that...

11-06-2012, 10:24 PM	#5
JinDesu Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: New York City Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,632	That would be a good question...

11-06-2012, 10:30 PM	#6
wanderography Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Hayward, California, USA Posts: 567 Original Poster	Originally posted by vonBaloney It makes no sense to enlarge the sensor on an existing system, unless the existing lenses were planned for that... I can remember earlier that someone had pointed out with facts that the Q lenses can support a larger sensor, like I said I just hope my sonnetar can work with a larger sensor, it was originally designed for MFT so hoping it kept the larger circle... But hey, isn't the 1/1.7" what is commonly found in consumer superzooms? and it is a fast 24 - 100, maybe for a new type of GRD...

11-06-2012, 11:16 PM	#8
hks_kansei Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 828	Call me silly. But how does that measurement work? 1/1.7" I presume it's a fraction of an inch? (being one "one, one point seventh of an inch") ie: 14.94mm ? or 3/5 inch? (give or take) (sorry, not particularly familiar with imperial measurement, and used to seeing only whole numbers in a fraction, if you're using decimals in a fraction, just use a decimal and be done with it!)

11-06-2012, 11:31 PM	#9
wanderography Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Hayward, California, USA Posts: 567 Original Poster	Originally posted by Adam The GXR has a bunch of different sensors, this could be yet another camera module... Thats what I'm kinda leaning more towards too, during the R&D interview at photokina they had mentioned briefly Q mount and the GXR, maybe this is what they came up with for super telephoto and super macro, as a stand alone camera well you have the Q, but would be genius for the GXR with the interchangeable sensor modules.

11-07-2012, 12:22 AM	#10
Pablom Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 1,940	Originally posted by hks_kansei But how does that measurement work? 1/1.7" I presume it's a fraction of an inch? (being one "one, one point seventh of an inch") ie: 14.94mm ? or 3/5 inch? (give or take) that is correct

11-07-2012, 07:57 AM	#11
JPT Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Tokyo Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,663	This patent probably has nothing to do with the Pentax Q. It was filed by Ricoh in March 2011, before the merger. It looks suitable for a replacement for the S10 unit for the GXR or a successor to the GX200 compact. This sensor size is commonly used by Ricoh and never by Pentax.

11-07-2012, 09:49 AM	#12
snostorm Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Chicago suburb, IL, USA Posts: 1,535	Originally posted by hks_kansei Call me silly. But how does that measurement work? 1/1.7" I presume it's a fraction of an inch? (being one "one, one point seventh of an inch") ie: 14.94mm ? or 3/5 inch? (give or take) (sorry, not particularly familiar with imperial measurement, and used to seeing only whole numbers in a fraction, if you're using decimals in a fraction, just use a decimal and be done with it!) Hi hks_kansei, The fractional inch format "standard" for digital sensors is a holdover from video in the '80s, and represents the measurement of the outside diameter of the glass envelope of the tube in those video cameras. Even then, it was a loose "standard", more of a convenience, and the number actually doesn't really relate to exact sensor measurements -- the sensors were just designed to fit within the image circles of the existing lenses. I believe these format designations were kept because lenses were already designated to be compatible with the fractional inch formats, and by using the old designations, no mental acrobatics would be needed to match the existing lenses to the new digital sensors. I wouldn't bother to try to understand this, just accept it as it is and look up the corresponding sensor measurements when needed. Scott

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

11-07-2012, 10:14 AM	#13
SOldBear Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Alameda, CA Posts: 3,206	Originally posted by snostorm I wouldn't bother to try to understand this, just accept it as it is and look up the corresponding sensor measurements when needed. Wise advice, I actually took the time and effort to understand it at some point in time, then forgot about it 3 months later. Finally I came to my sense and gave up.

11-07-2012, 10:30 AM	#14
snostorm Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Chicago suburb, IL, USA Posts: 1,535	Originally posted by vonBaloney It makes no sense to enlarge the sensor on an existing system, unless the existing lenses were planned for that... Hi vB, My understanding is that the Q was designed to work with a number of different sensor formats. This was reported by Japanese photo bloggers when Pentax did a presentation for them in Osaka preceding the official release. Remember that one of the comments at the announcement was that the Q was a camera waiting for the right sensor, and at the bloggers' presentation, apparently someone asked if 1/1.7" or even 1/1.6" sensors could have been used, and the Pentax representatives answered affirmatively, and said that this was why the lenses were engraved with only their true FLs rather than with 35mm EQ FLs. At the time the decision was made to go into production, the 1/2.3" 12MP BSI CMOS was the best sensor by some margin, and then-current 1/1.7" and 1/1.63" format cameras were still using 3 year old 10 MP CCDs. Also, in 1/2.3" format, sensors were being developed quickly -- by the time the Q was announced, a new 16 MP 1/2.3" BSI CMOS sensor had already been released by Sony. If they decided to go with a new BSI CMOS 1/1.7" sensor in a later model, the lenses will still be compatible, they'd just have a wider FOV, which would please some and disappoint others as the crop factor would be reduced to @ 4.55x from 5.58x. The 01 Prime would go from 47mm EQ to 39mm EQ, a little short, but still barely in the "normal" range. The 02 Zoom would go from a 28-83 EQ to a 23-68 EQ, still a reasonably useful range. The new 06 tele zoom would become a 68-205 EQ. The FE would just get wider. . . I don't know that they would go this route though. The difference between the two formats' IQ is just not that great IMO, and adapted lenses which Pentax is just getting around to exploiting (just about all are teles on the Q) would lose reach. Though there are now more cameras using the larger format, there are nowhere near the numbers using 1/2.3", so future development of the format would be slower, and I don't know if the slight IQ gains would be a good tradeoff against faster future development. This is all useless speculation though. . . we'll see what happens when it happens. . . Scott

11-07-2012, 10:42 AM	#15
vonBaloney Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Savannah, GA Posts: 5,357	Originally posted by snostorm If they decided to go with a new BSI CMOS 1/1.7" sensor in a later model, the lenses will still be compatible, they'd just have a wider FOV, which would please some and disappoint others as the crop factor would be reduced to @ 4.55x from 5.58x. The 01 Prime would go from 47mm EQ to 39mm EQ, a little short, but still barely in the "normal" range. The 02 Zoom would go from a 28-83 EQ to a 23-68 EQ, still a reasonably useful range. The new 06 tele zoom would become a 68-205 EQ. The FE would just get wider. . . That's the other reason it doesn't make sense to change it -- now all your lenses have changed FOV. Seems like madness...