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12-23-2013, 05:51 PM - 1 Like   #1
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Firmware changes from Pentax Q to Q7

As a very happy user of Q, and recently Q7, I was wondering if anyone had noticed the following differences between firmwares of both cameras. Here is my checklist with improvements of Q7 over Q in green and also regressions of Q7 in red.

Pentax Q -> firmware V1.14 (14.9 MB)
Pentax Q7 -> firmware V1.01 (17.9 MB)
  • Q7 menus are less squeezed (6 lines instead of 7)
  • Q7 menus have a fine dark gray texture
  • Photo menu :
    • Q7 has now Digital filters active for RAW files too.
    • Q7 has MF auto-zoom 6x additional setting
    • Q7 has new uses for Quick Dial : AF/MF, Peak On/Off, ND filter On/Off
    • Q7 can display/hide the two Electronic levels. Most of all, Q7 has two electronic levels !
    • Q had two additional settings in the Memory sub-Menu that disappeared on Q7 : Playback Info Display, File No.
  • Video menu
    • Q7 can choose 3 frame rates (24, 25, 30 fps)
    • Q7 offers to activate Distorsion / Highlight / Shadow corrections . Distorsion correction is deactivated with manual focus lenses.
    • Q7 has now 4 sound levels but lost the auto sound level used by default on Q. Is it capable to self-adjust the gain in case of strong sound (typically music concert) ?
  • Review menu
    • Q7 > Slideshow > Auto movie playback new option
    • Q7 has a new Auto Image Rotation option. Most of all, Q7 has an accelerometer to indicate image orientation ! This is great !
  • Settings menu :
    • Language: Q has 20 languages, Q7 only 2 (English and Japanese (?)). This is not a problem for me but it seems that Pentax has not enough room for storing all the languages.
    • Q could adjust the duration for Guide Display. Q7 can only display or not.
    • LCD Display Settings : Q calibrates its screen on Live View. Q7 calibrate its screen on an existing photo, which looks more useful.
    • Q7 can modify Display color
    • Q7 : new option for file sequential numbering
    • Q7 : new option for Eye-Fi
  • Custom Menu
    • Q7 C1. Lens Shutter Option : a new choice is available → “Lens and Electronic Shutters”
    • Q C4. Shake Reduction Options. This menu disappeared. To me, it appears that Q7 uses Mode 2 of Q (Activates SR also during Live View, can be seen to the lag between reality and display)
    • Q7 C10. Focus Ring in AF: On/Off → New option
    • Q7 C13. Color Space: sRGB/AdobeRGB → New option
    • Q7 C14. Save Rotation Info: On/Off → New option
    • Q7 C16. Auto SR Off : turns off SR with remote or self-timer On/Off→ New option
  • Image pop-up menu (the one that you get by pressing Down arrow in Review mode) :
    • Q7 can extract the WB setting from a picture
    • Q7 can save capture image settings as USER in Smart Effect
    • Q7 has Eye-Fi card option
    • Q had Image comparison of two images side by side. This disappeared from Q7. Too bad, it was extremely useful for finding the sharpest of similar pictures :-((
  • Boot time
    • With 02 Zoom 5-15mm
      • Q : < 2 sec
      • Q7 : < 1.5 sec
    • With manual lens : why such a loooong boot time ? There are no electric contacts ! Boot time should be instantaneous !
      • Q : < 2.5 sec
      • Q7 : < 2.5 sec
  • RAW files
    • Q7 : typically 18-20 Mb but the embedded thumbnail is only low resolution (1980x1440 pixels, 200Kb). You can easily extract the thumbnail with “dcraw -e test.dng” under Linux
    • Q : typically 19-21 Mb but with a fullsize thumbnail (4000x3000 pixels, 2,5-4,5 Mb)

Please tell me if your Q/Q7 behave as described. Perhaps have you also noticed other differences ? Let's try to gather information and send a summary to Pentax


Last edited by skyclad666; 12-27-2013 at 05:00 AM.
12-23-2013, 06:35 PM   #2
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Curious why you think Pentax need to be sent a summary of differences between the original Q and the Q7.
I have a feeling they probably know..........

QuoteQuote:
Q7 : typically 18-20 Mb but the embedded thumbnail is only low resolution (1980x1440 pixels, 200Kb). You can easily extract the thumbnail with “dcraw -e test.dng” under Linux
Doesn't appear to be the case as FASTSTONE previews/extracts a full size 4000x3000px JPG (not converting RAW - that's another key press in FS)

Last edited by Steve.Ledger; 12-23-2013 at 06:43 PM.
12-23-2013, 06:55 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by skyclad666 Quote
  • RAW files
    • Q7 : typically 18-20 Mb but the embedded thumbnail is only low resolution (1980x1440 pixels, 200Kb). You can easily extract the thumbnail with “dcraw -e test.dng” under Linux
    • Q : typically 19-21 Mb but with a fullsize thumbnail (4000x3000 pixels, 2,5-4,5 Mb)
My Q saves whatever jpeg size you select in the RAW. I suspect the Q7 does the same. The only Q7 sample I have (from firmware 1.00) has a 4000x3000 jpeg.
12-23-2013, 09:42 PM   #4
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Great chart of differences Q vs Q7.
thanks
barondla

12-24-2013, 01:06 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
Great chart of differences Q vs Q7.
thanks
barondla
You are welcome, Barondla. Glad to help. Your posts are very informative too.
12-24-2013, 01:13 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
My Q saves whatever jpeg size you select in the RAW. I suspect the Q7 does the same. The only Q7 sample I have (from firmware 1.00) has a 4000x3000 jpeg.
Dear Drougge, there is a misunderstanding.

First, I am speaking of Q7, not Q. I have both. Only the Q7 has a reduced thumnbnail. You cannot infer Q7 behaviour from Q.

We are also talking of the embedded JPG thumbnail inside the DNG raw file, not of the developed JPG generated from a raw file. Having a good quality thumbnail is very important for me as it can avoid to develop a raw file when you are in a hurry.

Imagine that your friend requires that you give him the photos that you have just taken. Instead of developing each DNG (a looong process), you can directly extract the thumbnails. With Linux, I just type "dcraw -e *.dng" in the directory where the DNG files are and I obtain a collection of JPG that can be given instantly.

Last edited by skyclad666; 12-24-2013 at 02:00 AM.
12-24-2013, 02:12 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve.Ledger Quote
Curious why you think Pentax need to be sent a summary of differences between the original Q and the Q7.
I have a feeling they probably know..........
Dear Steve, the purpose is to avoid regressions. After all, firmwares change thanks to customer feedback. I am sad that some functions disappeared from the Q7 (e.g. Image Comparison) and that the thumbnails are no more usable as full scale images. Perhaps Pentax knows, perhaps not. Or they think the customer will not see the changes :-) So my purpose is to make them know that we know, although we also know they know

QuoteOriginally posted by Steve.Ledger Quote
Doesn't appear to be the case as FASTSTONE previews/extracts a full size 4000x3000px JPG (not converting RAW - that's another key press in FS)
Thanks for the information. I did not know FastStone. A nice alternative to IrfanView or XnView, that all read Q7 DNGs too.
However, I cannot reproduce what you mention. When I open a DNG file and double-click on it to have it fullscreen, the title and also the resolution appear on the top left : 1920x1440=2.76 MP
This means FastStone also sees a low resolution thumbnail. Too bad. Perhaps my Q7 is differently configured from yours, but I wonder where could be the corresponding setting... We can exchange DNG files if you are interested.

Last edited by skyclad666; 12-24-2013 at 02:34 AM.
12-24-2013, 03:34 AM   #8
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QuoteQuote:
When I open a DNG file and double-click on it to have it fullscreen, the title and also the resolution appear on the top left : 1920x1440=2.76 MP
See post#3

Sample Q7 DNG for you to test
http://img.photographyblog.com/reviews/pentax_q7/sample_images/pentax_q7_13.dng

12-24-2013, 04:48 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve.Ledger Quote
Thank you for your Q7 sample pentax_q7_13.dng
I analyzed it and it embeds a 4000x3000 pixels thumbnail, as you said.

Please do find below a sample from my Q7 firmware v1.01 named IMGP2562.DNG
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sfu3j3rk7mybj2f/7l0qMpjTto

You can check yourself that the embedded thumbnail is only 1920x1440. I also joined the extracted thumbnails and the EXIF data extracted with EXIFtool.

You can see clearly that your picture was made with firmware 1.0 whereas mine was created with firmware 1.01. This is why I consider there was a regression (a bug ?) in the latest Q7 firmware.

Anyone here having the same "dwarf thumbnail" symptom on Q7 with firmware v1.01 ?
12-24-2013, 04:55 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by skyclad666 Quote
Dear Drougge, there is a misunderstanding.

First, I am speaking of Q7, not Q. I have both. Only the Q7 has a reduced thumnbnail. You cannot infer Q7 behaviour from Q.

We are also talking of the embedded JPG thumbnail inside the DNG raw file, not of the developed JPG generated from a raw file. Having a good quality thumbnail is very important for me as it can avoid to develop a raw file when you are in a hurry.

Imagine that your friend requires that you give him the photos that you have just taken. Instead of developing each DNG (a looong process), you can directly extract the thumbnails. With Linux, I just type "dcraw -e *.dng" in the directory where the DNG files are and I obtain a collection of JPG that can be given instantly.
While I agree on there being a misunderstanding, I think it's you who misunderstand what I tried to say. I'm aware that I don't have a Q7, but different people get different embedded JPEGs in their DNGs from this camera, which I can observe without having one of my own. Then I speculate that this is for the same reason people get this on the original Q, namely that what gets embedded follows the settings for JPEG size you select.

I'll just state it again: The settings on the Q (and I speculate also the Q7) allow you to select the resolution of JPEGs. This setting selects not only the resolution of JPEG files, but also the resolution of embedded JPEGs in DNG files.
12-24-2013, 06:20 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
I'll just state it again: The settings on the Q (and I speculate also the Q7) allow you to select the resolution of JPEGs. This setting selects not only the resolution of JPEG files, but also the resolution of embedded JPEGs in DNG files.
Tested on the Q, I could reproduce what you describe.

On Q7 : Checked the JPEG size in Tab1 > Image capture settings > JPEG recorded pixels.
There are three settings : L/M/S
The current setting is L and the embedded JPEG is 1990x1440.

So I guess the 1.01 firmware on the Q7 did not properly reset the JPEG size variable. I would be interested to know if I am alone to have this problem or if any other Q7 with updated firmware can notice the same problem.
12-24-2013, 04:19 PM   #12
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QuoteQuote:
I guess the 1.01 firmware on the Q7 did not properly reset the JPEG size variable.
Assuming that the latest Q7 firmware has reduced the maximum size of the DNG file's embedded *preview* JPG, I totally fail to see what the problem is?
If you want a full res JPG then process your DNG in LightRoom or whatever and export the JPG.
12-24-2013, 05:45 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve.Ledger Quote
Assuming that the latest Q7 firmware has reduced the maximum size of the DNG file's embedded *preview* JPG, I totally fail to see what the problem is?
If you want a full res JPG then process your DNG in LightRoom or whatever and export the JPG.
A fair number of people set their camera to jpeg+raw. I don't, because I don't want two files. But I do still want the camera jpeg (and obviously I want the raw). The Q provides this just fine. Apparently the Q7 does not. I don't seem to be alone in wanting this (since skyclad is complaining about it). (Sure, you can mess about with replacing the jpeg in the dng when importing the files, but I dislike all changes to the original file.)

Different people want different things, and this used to work. (I'm hoping it still works actually, but until someone else with a 1.01 Q7 finds differently I will assume it doesn't.)
12-27-2013, 05:23 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
Different people want different things, and this used to work. (I'm hoping it still works actually, but until someone else with a 1.01 Q7 finds differently I will assume it doesn't.)
Very good summary, Drougge. It used to work and was convenient. For me, the big advantage of a full resolution thumbnail is that I can check sharpness without processing the DNG.

Thank you to your contribution to all of you. I sent a message to Pentax France, hoping they make good use of it.

Last edited by skyclad666; 12-27-2013 at 05:56 AM.
12-27-2013, 05:24 AM   #15
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EXIFs in Q7

Did anyone have a look at the EXIFs that I posted in Dropbox ? By comparing Steeve EXIF and mine, many interesting properties can be seen there :
  • new features such as:
    • Orientation: Horizontal (normal)
    • Roll Angle: -8 (is it degree units? To be checked)
    • Pitch Angle: -25
  • useful data such as:
    • Sensor Size: 7.576 x 5.682 mm (This is bigger than 7.44 x 5.58 mm indicated in DPreview specifications but perhaps in includes additional dimentions for SR. Pentax Q7: Digital Photography Review)
    • DSP Firmware Version: 1.01.21.08 (check the sub-sub numbers :-))
    • Camera Temperature: 27 C (useful to derive the noise, lower is better, but I did not check accuracy yet)
    • Scale Factor To 35 mm Equivalent: 4.6
    • Circle Of Confusion: 0.007 mm
    • Field Of View: 4.5 deg
    • Light Value: 10.7 (this appears only in Steve picture made with 02, does not appear in mine made with a manual focus 100mm macro lens)
  • unclear data such as:
    • SR Half Press Time: 4.25 s or longer
    • Image Size: 4064x3000 (what are those 64 more colums ? Cannot be for SR as there are no additional lines)


ExifTool Version Number : 8.40
File Name : IMGP2562.DNG
Directory : .
File Size : 18 MB
File Modification Date/Time : 2013:12:24 12:04:24+01:00
File Permissions : rw-r--r--
File Type : DNG
MIME Type : image/x-adobe-dng
Exif Byte Order : Little-endian (Intel, II)
Make : PENTAX
Camera Model Name : PENTAX Q7
Orientation : Horizontal (normal)
Software : PENTAX Q7 Ver 1.01
Modify Date : 2013:12:24 12:04:23
Artist :
Image Width : 4064
Image Height : 3000
Bits Per Sample : 12
Compression : Uncompressed
Photometric Interpretation : Color Filter Array
Strip Offsets : 182620
Samples Per Pixel : 1
Rows Per Strip : 3000
Strip Byte Counts : 18288000
X Resolution : 300
Y Resolution : 300
Planar Configuration : Chunky
Resolution Unit : inches
CFA Repeat Pattern Dim : 2 2
CFA Pattern 2 : 0 1 1 2
CFA Layout : Rectangular
Black Level Repeat Dim : 2 2
Black Level : 0 0 0 0
White Level : 3983
Default Scale : 1 1
Default Crop Origin : 0 0
Default Crop Size : 4000 3000
Bayer Green Split : 0
Anti Alias Strength : 1
Active Area : 0 0 3000 4000
Subfile Type : Reduced-resolution image
Primary Chromaticities : 0.64 0.33 0.3 0.6 0.15 0.006
Y Cb Cr Coefficients : 0.299 0.587 0.114
Y Cb Cr Sub Sampling : YCbCr4:2:0 (2 2)
Y Cb Cr Positioning : Co-sited
Copyright :
Exposure Time : 1/40
F Number : 0.0
Exposure Program : Aperture-priority AE
Date/Time Original : 2013:12:24 12:04:23
Create Date : 2013:12:24 12:04:23
Flash : Off, Did not fire
Focal Length : 100.0 mm
Sensing Method : One-chip color area
Custom Rendered : Normal
Exposure Mode : Auto
Focal Length In 35mm Format : 460 mm
Scene Capture Type : Standard
Subject Distance Range : Unknown
Lens Info : 0mm f/0
Lens Make :
Lens Model :
DNG Version : 1.1.0.0
DNG Backward Version : 1 1 0 0
Unique Camera Model : PENTAX Q7
Color Matrix 1 : 2.035919189 -1.353286743 -0.1195220947 0.1526031494 0.6324768066 0.2670898438 0.102722168 0.00798034668 0.5067596436
Color Matrix 2 : 1.299453735 -0.5593261719 -0.1107177734 -0.1878814697 1.013946533 0.2026824951 -0.006423950195 0.1232910156 0.4918823242
Analog Balance : 1 1 1
As Shot Neutral : 0.6168674699 1 0.5300207039
Baseline Exposure : -0.5000076295
Baseline Noise : 1
Baseline Sharpness : 1
Linear Response Limit : 1
Pentax Version : 10.6.1.0
Pentax Model Type : 3
Preview Image Size : 640x480
Preview Image Length : 10272
Preview Image Start : 37022
Pentax Model ID : Unknown (0x12f7a)
Date : 2013:12:24
Time : 12:04:22
Quality : RAW
Flash Mode : Off, Did not fire; Internal
Focus Mode : Manual
AF Point Selected : Unknown (0)
ISO : 400
Exposure Compensation : 0
Metering Mode : Multi-segment
Auto Bracketing : 0 EV, No Extended Bracket
White Balance : Auto
Saturation : Normal
Contrast : Med High
Sharpness : Med Hard
DSP Firmware Version : 1.01.21.08
Effective LV : 7.2
Picture Mode : Aperture Priority, Off-Auto-Aperture; 1/3 EV steps
Drive Mode : Single-frame; No Timer; Shutter Button; Single Exposure
Sensor Size : 7.576 x 5.682 mm
Color Space : sRGB
Image Area Offset : 0 0
Raw Image Size : 4000x3000
Preview Image Borders : 0 0 0 0
Lens Type : Unknown (21 0)
Camera Temperature : 23 C
AE Lock : Off
Noise Reduction : Off
Flash Exposure Comp : 0
Image Tone : Bright
SR Result : Stabilized
Shake Reduction : On (7)
SR Half Press Time : 4.25 s or longer
SR Focal Length : 0 mm
Shutter Count : 345
Faces Detected : 0
Face Position : 0 0
Hue : Normal
White Balance Auto Adjustment : On
Tungsten AWB : Subtle Correction
Dynamic Range Expansion : Unknown (0 2 0 0)
World Time Location : Hometown
Hometown DST : No
Destination DST : No
Hometown City : Paris
Destination City : Paris
High/Low Key Adj : 0
Fine Sharpness : Off; Normal
High ISO Noise Reduction : Auto; Active (Medium)
Monochrome Filter Effect : None
Monochrome Toning : None
Face Detect : Unknown (12); 0 faces detected
Face Detect Frame Size : 0 0
Shadow Compensation : Unknown (2 4)
Cross Process : Off
Distortion Correction : Off
Chromatic Aberration Correction : Off
Bleach Bypass Toning : Off
Black Point : 111 111 111 110
White Point : 13280 8192 8192 15456
AE Exposure Time : 1/72
AE Aperture : 0.1
AE ISO : 3805
AE Xv : -7.875
AEB Xv : 5.5
AE Min Exposure Time : 352.1
AE Program Mode : Unknown (144)
AE Max Aperture : 0.1
AE Max Aperture 2 : 0.1
AE Min Aperture : 0
AE Metering Mode : [7]
Flash Exposure Comp Set : +5.5
Manufacture Date : 2013:06:14
Production Code : 2.1
Internal Serial Number : 10842
Power Source : Body Battery
Body Battery State : 1
AF Predictor : 384
AF Defocus : 2
AF Integration Time : 448 ms
AF Points In Focus : None
WB Shift AB : 0
WB Shift MG : 0
Serial Number : 4706990
Source Directory Index : 0
Source File Index : 0
Level Orientation : Horizontal (normal)
Roll Angle : -8
Pitch Angle : -25
Contrast Detect AF Area : 0 0 0 0
Cross Process Params : 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Calibration Illuminant 1 : Standard Light A
Calibration Illuminant 2 : D65
CFA Pattern : [Red,Green][Green,Blue]
Image Size : 4064x3000
Lens ID : Unknown (21 0)
Preview Image : (Binary data 10272 bytes, use -b option to extract)
Scale Factor To 35 mm Equivalent: 4.6
Shutter Speed : 1/40
Circle Of Confusion : 0.007 mm
Field Of View : 4.5 deg
Focal Length : 100.0 mm (35 mm equivalent: 460.0 mm)

Last edited by skyclad666; 12-27-2013 at 05:29 AM.
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