[Naturenut]

(originally posted this under general photography, not realizing this section was here..doh!)

I recently had someone ask me this when inquiring about doing a family/senior photo session. I gave them an hourly base rate for my services and the additional fees for mileage and PP, photos, etc. The person then asked what the base rate includes.

How is it that people do not understand that they need to pay you for your time, equipment use, set up, etc?

What's the best way to answer this question other than simply (and nicely/professionally) stating it as I just did...it's the rate for my time and so forth, not unlike you would pay to see an MD (for lack of a better example at the moment).

Or is it better to 'bundle' everything into a flat fee (time, travel, PP, prints, set up, etc.) such as I dunno...$350 as a random number and then put a set time limit on how long (hours) that starting rate covers? (which is what I orginally did...forgot to add this initially to my post)

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Last edited by Naturenut; 10-21-2010 at 09:19 AM.

[Naturenut]

Anyone have any feedback on this?

[opfor]

If the conversation went the way you described it, it sounds like you were fairly straight forward with your charges. They may have been trying to talk you down a bit? Who knows?

[cwood]

For me... Base rate covers
- travel up to __ miles (state your threshold)
- x number of edited photos (photographers pick)
- complete set of 4x6 proofs from a professional lab
- digital files if you want.

generally I experience at least a 4:1 ratio of total time on the job vs time shooting so if they are paying for a 1-hr photo session I can expect to spend 4 hrs dealing with the job... pack gear, travel, setup, shoot, re-pack gear, travel home, download files, sort files, edit files, send files to print, check prints for problems, possible re-edit, possible burn CD, send images out in the mail.... Not to mention dealing phone calls and emails before and after

There is no sense in quoting a base rate that does not include anything. Imagine going to the car dealer and having them offer a nice car for the base rate of $5000. For that you get everything but the keys to the ignition. If you want the keys it will cost you another $20,000.

[Naturenut]

For me... Base rate covers
- travel up to __ miles (state your threshold)
- x number of edited photos (photographers pick)
- complete set of 4x6 proofs from a professional lab
- digital files if you want.

generally I experience at least a 4:1 ratio of total time on the job vs time shooting so if they are paying for a 1-hr photo session I can expect to spend 4 hrs dealing with the job... pack gear, travel, setup, shoot, re-pack gear, travel home, download files, sort files, edit files, send files to print, check prints for problems, possible re-edit, possible burn CD, send images out in the mail.... Not to mention dealing phone calls and emails before and after

There is no sense in quoting a base rate that does not include anything. Imagine going to the car dealer and having them offer a nice car for the base rate of $5000. For that you get everything but the keys to the ignition. If you want the keys it will cost you another $20,000.

Oh I explained what it included but it seems that was not sufficient information for the person. I dunno, I just got the feeling that they wanted to know why I quoted a particular price and that they wanted it for much cheaper. Suffice to say I have not heard back from them so I guess it's a lesson learned. Those that are only interested in price are not serious about securing your services (?)

[Lowell Goudge]

I will play devil's advocate here.

Let's say you book someone for a 1 hour shoot.

They might just expect you to be ready to take photos for an hour. I.e. they are measuring the hour by their time in front of the camera, not an hour of your time.

You may spend several hours getting ready.

Let me give you an off topic example. I taught at a community college 1 night a week, for several years in the 1980's. They paid me X per hour of class time, but it took me 3 X hours of time in advance to prepare for the class, the first year I taught.

I got nothing for the time spent preparing for class, taking assignments and markig them, grading tests etc. It was expected that this was all covered as part of the paid time in class. Yes the houryly rate looked good on paper, but it did little to really cover the costs (in terms of my time) to actually do a good job.

I think photo subjects might be the same way. They also may not appreciate the fact that when you go to them, you have to carry your studio (such as it may be) to them. An hour of your time, in your studio, where there is no or minimal set up involved, is a different hour than you carrying the studio to the subjects.

In reading your post, I am not so sure you explained, that 1 hour of your time, might not be enough to even set up and then pack up your studio.

You should probably quote two things. a minimum time at a location, and the "shooting time". This way, they understand that you need to be present perhaps 30-60 minutes in advance of starting to shoot, and will remain 30-60 minutes after the session (with the clients) ends

Edit note:
regardless of how you quote, you also need to consider one additional thing, depreciation of equipment. It might seem like an insignificant cost, BUT all you r equipment, - Cameras, flashes, lenses, computers, printers, etc... depreciate / wear / degrade with use and age. Your hourly rate needs to cover the cost of routinely purchasing new equipment and this should be based on a fairly fast replacement rate of perhaps 2-3 years maximum.

your hourly rate is not just your time, it is your time plus the cost of capitol involved to do the work

[mel]

I charge per hour of actual shooting. And in that time is included basic editing and processing and the images on a disc (my selections). I deal with prints completely separately (however, I DO try to sell them on the idea that the prints I make from my files profiled for the specific printer will be nicer). If the client wants more extensive retouching or photoshopping (kid having a breakout or something), that is also charged separately and on a per-image basis.

[Naturenut]

I will play devil's advocate here.

Let's say you book someone for a 1 hour shoot.

They might just expect you to be ready to take photos for an hour. I.e. they are measuring the hour by their time in front of the camera, not an hour of your time.

You may spend several hours getting ready.

Let me give you an off topic example. I taught at a community college 1 night a week, for several years in the 1980's. They paid me X per hour of class time, but it took me 3 X hours of time in advance to prepare for the class, the first year I taught.

I got nothing for the time spent preparing for class, taking assignments and markig them, grading tests etc. It was expected that this was all covered as part of the paid time in class. Yes the houryly rate looked good on paper, but it did little to really cover the costs (in terms of my time) to actually do a good job.

I think photo subjects might be the same way. They also may not appreciate the fact that when you go to them, you have to carry your studio (such as it may be) to them. An hour of your time, in your studio, where there is no or minimal set up involved, is a different hour than you carrying the studio to the subjects.

In reading your post, I am not so sure you explained, that 1 hour of your time, might not be enough to even set up and then pack up your studio.

You should probably quote two things. a minimum time at a location, and the "shooting time". This way, they understand that you need to be present perhaps 30-60 minutes in advance of starting to shoot, and will remain 30-60 minutes after the session (with the clients) ends

Edit note:
regardless of how you quote, you also need to consider one additional thing, depreciation of equipment. It might seem like an insignificant cost, BUT all you r equipment, - Cameras, flashes, lenses, computers, printers, etc... depreciate / wear / degrade with use and age. Your hourly rate needs to cover the cost of routinely purchasing new equipment and this should be based on a fairly fast replacement rate of perhaps 2-3 years maximum.

your hourly rate is not just your time, it is your time plus the cost of capitol involved to do the work

All excellent feedback Lowell. Thanks so much. And yes I do agree about the depreciation being figured in. Unfortunately it appears that some folks really don't care about any of that. They want the proverbial 'sumthin for nuthin'.

For example: I was reading on an equine forum recently and you wouldn't believe the bashing that photographers were getting for their charges (for horse show photos). From complaining about print costs to claiming that the photographer has no right to charge them for release of the photos to use in advertisements, etc. (as exhibitors feel that because they paid for one photo they shouldn't have to pay again because 'it's their photo' now). No, sorry...that's not how it works. Some photographers chimed in (not I...I stayed out of it w/one exception, as I didn't want to be attacked...the people there can be quite viscious).

At any rate, my point is that some folks just don't understand how much $ photographers have invested in their work. From equipment to time, travel, PP, printing costs, assistants...you guys know what I'm saying. Bottom line is (IMHO) if you want inexpensive, generic 'Kmart' type photos, then go to 'Kmart'. If you want high quality artistic, creative lovely photos that are catered to your wants/needs, you have to be willing to pay that photographer for their services. Otherwise, don't waste my time please.

Re: What I DID post on that horse forum (hoping to give some insight on copyrights of photos is the following (see link below) by a well known equine photographer. No one responded so I guess they still didn't want to 'hear it'. ha!


http://www.equinephotographers.org/pdf/Whose_Picture_Is_It_Anyway.pdf

[jolepp]

Try to look at this from the client perspective too. An offer with a fixed price for a given job is much easier to accept than being charged by some system that the client really doesn't understand. When offering professional services one cannot really blame the client for not understanding your professional field as this is tends to be the very reason for which they come to you :-)

[Naturenut]

Try to look at this from the client perspective too. An offer with a fixed price for a given job is much easier to accept than being charged by some system that the client really doesn't understand. When offering professional services one cannot really blame the client for not understanding your professional field as this is tends to be the very reason for which they come to you :-)

Yes I understand that, truly I do. The reason I decided to break things down was because people kept asking me what the original 'bundled' rate covered. So I said okay I'll break it down for them. But now still others want to know even more about each separated charge. I mean my goodness, it's got me banging my head against the wall.

[Naturenut]

I better read The Photographer's Market 2010 again tonight. lol

[Naturenut]

As an aside regarding "rights"....I'm puzzled by this (see below). How is it that they have to right to tell you that you can not sell any photographs you take at this event? It is being held at a state fair facility that is not owned by the event organizers (they're renting it for a week). Isn't that considered 'public domain"? Would love to hear your thoughts on this too as this seems less clear to me, legally. I mean essentially if you take a photo of a horse walking around the grounds, they're telling you you can't sell it if you want to. But then in turn they say that people need to be aware that they may be photographed and have to consent to possibly have your photo used if you enter certain areas. I dunno, just seems odd to me...I mean if I go I'll be taking photos to build my portfolio and not necessarily to try and sell. But if I do take a photo that someone wants to purchase, how is it that this place can legally take away MY copyrights? *scratching head*

Recording and Photographing
Equine Affaire presents a myriad of great opportunities to record educational sessions and take pictures or videos of horses and "famous faces" for personal use. Please feel free to bring your camera, video camera, or audio recorder and film, photgraph, and record activities at the event. If you record, we ask that you adhere to the following guidelines:

Nearly all clinicians and presenters permit the use of recording devices during their sessions; if an individual presenter does not want to have his or her session recorded, an announcement will be made by the venue manager at the beginning of the session. Your cooperation in complying with the wishes of each presenter will be appreciated.

When taking a photo or filming the event, please be discrete and respectful of all event participants and attendees. You may not enter any arena or ring or hang over the railing of any arena or ring to take photographs or videos. Your recording activity should not disrupt any activity in any venue or create an annoyance for other attendees.

You may record, photograph, and film activities at Equine Affaire only for your own personal use; you may not sell or in any way market any image or recording gathered at Equine Affaire without the express written permission of Equine Affaire, Inc.

Consent to be Photographed
Please be advised that film crews affiliated with mass media, independent film companies, and other professional photographers will be filming and photographing at Equine Affaire. By entering areas of the event where there may be individuals either filming or photographing activities, you are consenting to being filmed and or captured in photographs. You agree that your image and voice as captured may be used as part of any production that incorporates this film or photograph and that this may be broadcasted in any and all media throughout the world in perpetuity. If you do not agree to this, please be aware of individuals who are filming and/or photographing and do not enter areas where these activities may be taking place.

[cwood]

I'm pretty sure this crosses into the same legal area that we were discussing in another thread a couple of days ago Photographing Kids Soccer... could I sell prints to the parents? - Page 2 - PentaxForums.com

I think the law is ambiguous enough that there could be strong legal arguments from either side - but essentially (it is my belief) that if you intend to sell your images from the event you are undertaking commercial activity. And for that you would need a vendor license from the manager. As I said in the other thread - there is a reason you don't see an over-abundance of hotdog vendors at these events. Vendor licenses are paid for by the vendors and they grant them a degree of exclusivity. Just because everyone has a camera does not mean that YOU have the right to undertake commercial activity with your camera at the same event.

The fact that the land may or may not be public does not matter. The land is being rented and the person renting the property has the right to put whatever legal restrictions they want on access and use of the land. And when I say legal restrictions I mean they probably can't discriminate on something like race or gender but they can restrict access to certain areas, they can control what events take place in certain areas, and they can ban and/or restrict photography.

[Naturenut]

I'm pretty sure this crosses into the same legal area that we were discussing in another thread a couple of days ago

I think the law is ambiguous enough that there could be strong legal arguments from either side - but essentially (it is my belief) that if you intend to sell your images from the event you are undertaking commercial activity. And for that you would need a vendor license from the manager. As I said in the other thread - there is a reason you don't see an over-abundance of hotdog vendors at these events. Vendor licenses are paid for by the vendors and they grant them a degree of exclusivity. Just because everyone has a camera does not mean that YOU have the right to undertake commercial activity with your camera at the same event.

The fact that the land may or may not be public does not matter. The land is being rented and the person renting the property has the right to put whatever legal restrictions they want on access and use of the land. And when I say legal restrictions I mean they probably can't discriminate on something like race or gender but they can restrict access to certain areas, they can control what events take place in certain areas, and they can ban and/or restrict photography.

Interesting. Guess I'll read up on my state's laws.

[Lowell Goudge]

[COLOR="Blue"]All excellent feedback Lowell. Thanks so much. And yes I do agree about the depreciation being figured in. Unfortunately it appears that some folks really don't care about any of that. They want the proverbial 'sumthin for nuthin'.

For example: I was reading on an equine forum recently and you wouldn't believe the bashing that photographers were getting for their charges (for horse show photos). From complaining about print costs to claiming that the photographer has no right to charge them for release of the photos to use in advertisements, etc. (as exhibitors feel that because they paid for one photo they shouldn't have to pay again because 'it's their photo' now). No, sorry...that's not how it works. Some photographers chimed in (not I...I stayed out of it w/one exception, as I didn't want to be attacked...the people there can be quite viscious).

At any rate, my point is that some folks just don't understand how much $ photographers have invested in their work. From equipment to time, travel, PP, printing costs, assistants...you guys know what I'm saying. Bottom line is (IMHO) if you want inexpensive, generic 'Kmart' type photos, then go to 'Kmart'. If you want high quality artistic, creative lovely photos that are catered to your wants/needs, you have to be willing to pay that photographer for their services. Otherwise, don't waste my time please.

Perhaps what you need to do, as opposed to quoting an hourly rate, and then getting into an argument about how much time you spend, is to quote a price for the work, and a breakdown of tasks with "typical" times, but no hard quote or hourly rate.

there are 2 reasons to do this, one is so that they understand what you are doing and what you are promising to do, compared to perhaps a compeditor, but it avoids disclosing hourly rates.

The up side is it gives the potential customer something to base how you put the package price together, as well as any deliverables, the down side is there will always be someone who is a real pain in the @$$ that makes you spend more than necessary because they want to get their money's worth.

ANy one who diggs deeper into your price is someone who thinks he is a business man and by getting inside your price can talk you down. Unless you are in left firld with price, you should just walk away from someone like that because they are spending more money in their time, than they are saving.