[mattb123]

Well, since I am one of the "one" with some pretty bad memories I'll reserve the right to think one is too many okay? I don't want any kid to have memories like mine. Not one if I can help it. I was luckier than most but it's still hard sometimes when things come up that make me remember that one of my mom's best friend's kids could do something like that. He was like a cousin to me for a long time, the sleazeball and incidentally it wasn't just me. He likely did the same to his own sister for a long time. Not a stranger, true, but everyone trusted him too. No one would have ever thought him to be a pervert, but he was. My mom lost her best friend of many years over that in the end...

I have some considerably worse childhood memories I won't get into much here, but as a parent let's call it a worst case scenario or close to it (I wasn't murdered, obviously). The perp was the father of a friend.
I also have some truly wonderful memories of being friends with an older man who lived in the neighborhood. I just visited him in assisted living (he's 85 now). He's been a huge positive force in my life and I'm grateful to have known him both as a kid and now as an adult. In fact he gave me my first SLR (ME Super) in the late 80's.

The key here is educating kids. I didn't know what to look out for as a kid and was gullible. This got me into a bad situation. So my point is to educate the kids on what is acceptable or not. Don't try and shelter them from everyone because often the perp is alreadly in the circle of trusted adults. Sure, "stranger danger" is out there but you can't count on strangers being bad and people you know being good. It just doesn't work that way. Critical thinking is key.

I have honest and frank discussions with my son about what is ok and what isn't and I try and quiz him regularly.
Pedos probably know that cameras draw attention and if they were really on the hunt for a child, they wouldn't draw attention to themselves with one.
So paranoia about pedos with cameras is unfounded IMO. It's just a fear of the unknown. Get over it and think about what you really should be afraid of before just labeling a group like photographers as the enemy.

If we focus on threats and danger all the time we can't enjoy life, but we can't have total disregard for safety.

In my case, the good guy was the guy with the camera.

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Last edited by mattb123; 10-05-2011 at 10:55 AM.

[Dma110]

Well said, Matt, well said

[paulh]

Well said, Matt, well said

+1 Good post, Matt. A lot of valid points.

[Macario]

Well said Matt,

And people do seem to forget that.
When looked at the statistics, the perv in first place will be a family member, in second place a friend of the family, in third place someone we "trust" (like the teacher, soccer coach etc.) and then as fourth a total stranger.

And just labebling someone because of taking pictures is just wrong You do not knwo if he or she is a perv. Even if somebody says he or she is, there is still a chane that somebody is trying to hurt that some-one by making him look evil (I have seen it happen to innocent people).

If you really want to protect your child, the only way to do it is lock it up and throw away the key. Which we won't do, cause that isn't the way.

There are evil perosns out there in the world, but still the most of them are good, with no bad intentions.

[Bruce]

Good moral discussion, some excellent advice, great examples of indignation from both ends of the argument. Funny, I remember reading an article from a street photographer who never takes a photo without seeking permission first and it is something I try to live by as well, saves an argument and gains co-operation most of the time (funny how people like to pose for the lens). The following is an extract from a paper by Andrew Nemeth published this year. Whilst it is coming from the Australian perspective, it does frame most of the arguments in this thread from a legal standpoint.

Countering misconceptions about illegality and immorality won't be easy. FWIW the following tips may help: Adopt a professional attitude; Don't sneak or creep about; Prepare a simple and rational answer to the question "Why did you take that photograph!?"; Be clear and confident when confronted but not cocky or argumentative; Always remember you have rights, but don't forget your subjects have them too, especially on private land; Finally, it is always easier to put your camera away than engage in street-lawyer shouting matches.

Follow the link for the whole paper and lots of links off to some great resources 4020 Φ NSW Photographer's Rights It is a long read, but well worth it, especially for us Aussies!

[Philoslothical]

I'll just leave this here.

I have trouble believing that this is the kind of society people want to live in.

[HockeyDad]

Being a fan of irony, I'd love to see a still from the security footage of the "incident"... Maybe a wide shot that clearly shows the "No Photography" sign.

[mattb123]

I'll just leave this here.

I have trouble believing that this is the kind of society people want to live in.

I certainly don't, but people left comments in support of the action at that site...

[magkelly]

Kelly, do you not find it a bit odd that the majority of the people that actually have kids here take the exact opposite view as you?

Yes, I do because the vast majority of parents that I worked for would not have taken that position. They would have absolutely put their children before their or anyone else's civil rights. A lot of them were very liberal people, but they were not that liberal when it came to their kids.

[magkelly]

You know I've been on both sides of the line. I've been the person wanting to take pics of a cute kid and I've been responsible for the safety of a cute kid. For me the bottom line was keeping a kid safe. I do realize that my perceptions might be wrong, how could I not when I'm a photographer myself, but I still choose to err on the side of caution, ask first et all.

I know the vast majority of abusers are someone closer to the victim than the abuser on the street but it does happen more than you think that some stranger just grabs a kid and tries to mess with him or her. We've actually had a number of incidents lately where male perps unknown to the child have selected little girls at bus stops, walking home from friend's houses, stuff like that, literally grabbed them to molest and in a couple of cases rape the victim. Those cases were not the same person doing it. It's been a major news thing several times this past year or so. As a result it's made the community here very paranoid actually about letting kids go to the parks with friends, letting them walk home, and you don't see kids here as much waiting for the school bus alone. They're always in groups with a parent lurking, and it never used to have to be that way. As a kid I just walked to mine, hooked up with my friends, and waited, but you don't see that as much now. Kids are driven, they hook up, Mom waits in the car not too far away no matter how much it makes her kid squirm.

I don't have kids of my own, true, but I do have kids in my family and at this point I am far more protective of them than my parents ever had to be with me, and it's not just paranoia. I have very good reasons for keeping a much closer eye on them than my folks did me. If you'd have told me even 5 years ago that I and their parents would be eying every adult that comes near them from their teachers to their soccer coach with a wary eye I'd have shook my head at your paranoia, but now? Oh yeah, we all do.

Every day almost in the news some local person gets busted for messing with a kid. Teachers, religious people, coaches, boy and girl scout people, babysitters, and yes, sometimes it is random perverts on the darned street! Some days? We all just want to lock our kids up till they're 21, but of course you can't do that, can't coddle your kids to that degree or you'll smother them. We do worry though, a lot more than we probably should or have to.

Yeah, that person in the park may be perfectly innocent of any intent to do harm, and hey, that person sometimes it's ME, but that doesn't make it okay for parents to assume that or for photographers to object to being looked at a bit funny until the parents get to know them and their intent. I'm sorry but the welfare of children is one of the most sacred trusts we ALL have to honor in this life. I don't like the paranoia anymore than any of you do, but there is valid reason for it's existence and I will not fault any parent for getting in my face about wanting to take photos if they are uncomfortable for some reason with me doing so. That is their job. To raise their kids, to keep them safe, and yeah, sometimes parents can be overprotective to the point where it's annoying and it does infringe upon my civil rights. But that how you have to be these days if you're a caring parent, ever vigilant, ever wary, ever on guard until you know you can trust that person with your child. You can't just give people the benefit of the doubt these days. We're just not living in a time when you can just do that anymore.

When a kid can't walk 5 blocks home from a friend's house without something happening, when a kid can't stand at a bus stop with 3 other kids and not get snatched and nearly raped, when a kid at the local mall on the way to the bathroom with his mother only a few feet away gets pulled into a back room area and molested, when teachers, coaches and even the minister, people you're all supposed to be able to trust, molest then who cares about a few hurt feelings and a little indignity a photographer might feel? FYI, those are examples of the local cases I was referring to. All of these events happened here in the past year or so. Yeah there were a lot of teachers and the like busted too, but there were also quite a few stranger cases actually, far more than you'd expect for such a small place as this.

For the record, I've worked under the watchful eye of a nanny cam. It was distasteful to me. I really didn't particularly like it, but I got the reason for it, and in time I was even glad it was there, because when the shiz hit the fan with one of the other nannies they used, and the parents got totally ticked off about what they perceived as some rough handling of their baby? I wasn't in any danger of losing my job or my professional reputation over her misdeeds because those parents knew which one of us put bruises on that baby and how they got there.

Hyper-caution probably will be the death of a lot of people's civil liberties but trusting anyone with your kids, it's just not that simple anymore. I wish it was. I hate having to be so darned suspicious of people, but I just feel that more and more you just can't take people and certain situations for granted. I really don't like being taken as a potential child abuser, but I'd still rather have people look at me funny than have parents who just don't care or who just don't see accidentally allow the wrong person to get access to their children. I do know that can happen, will happen to some kids, but if questioning me or everyone else they meet sets their minds at east, or actually protects a child from harm than how can I object all that much really? I can't. Not if I put the kids first, and I do, absolutely, there is no other alternative.

It's an impossible choice and a painful one but Civil Liberties are just not as important as real flesh and blood children are. They just can't be. It's one of the most primal instincts we humans have, acting to protect our young. Yeah, sometimes we act like fools doing that, but that is our nature. Most of us I think would rather die than see a child get hurt. Most of us given danger and a kid's presence would act to protect that kid before we protect ourselves, wouldn't we? Then why is it so difficult to see that when it comes down to it with parents we meet every day? Why as photographers do we feel so threatened by the very idea that someone might put the welfare of a child before our right to photograph that child?

I mean think about it. Set your anger at the very idea that someone might want you not to aside for a moment, never mind that 99% of the time the threat was only a perceived one, would you really want someone to put taking a photograph before the welfare of a child? Would you want them to forget that you might be that 1/100 person that they do have to have qualms about? To not even ask? That's asking a lot of any parent who actually is a good one I think. Yeah, people shouldn't assume and they should be a lot more polite about refusing sometimes, but they do have reasons, even if they aren't always valid ones for wondering...

[Philoslothical]

I really don't like being taken as a potential child abuser

You really don't get to say that, yet. Maybe in a few years, with the way the paranoia and mass hysteria is rising, but you do NOT get to compare your situation to men's in this context.

Women get a pass on almost anything legal, and in the rare event that they are charged with abuse of a child, they often get probation or similar sentences where men get years in prison. Often the reasons cited for these inequitable sentences include that they have children! Women are not casually suspected of being deviants, or terrorists, or anything. Women are also much more likely to be believed about any accusations they make. You have a very privileged position in society.

Set your anger at the very idea that someone might want you not to aside for a moment, never mind that 99% of the time the threat was only a perceived one, would you really want someone to put taking a photograph before the welfare of a child?

This is an entirely fallacious argument, and a dangerous one. You, or anyone, can be vigilant without being hostile. You can take good care of your kids, and those in your charge, without encroaching on other people's rights.

The bottom line is really this: Your kid's rights are not more important than mine, or anyone else's. Rights are inherent to everyone, and you can't pick and choose who is more important or the whole idea of human rights goes out the window. Thinking that your precious snowflake is somehow more important than anyone - or everyone - else is a conceit, and a natural one, but still wrong.

Statistically, the kinds of attacks you keep citing are very rare and in decline. Lightning could just as easily strike a kid, and it does from time to time, but it's not huge news when that happens. The only thing that's really changed is YOUR level of access to information. Your perceptions. The danger level out there isn't much different than 50 years ago, or more. You just didn't hear about it back then. There was no net, and these stories were hushed up out of Christian repression and shame rather than shouted from every television.

And y'know what? The vast majority of people, and their children, lived normal lives, completely oblivious to these monsters in the shadows that you see everywhere now - that you TRY to see everywhere now - because the media tells you to.

The worst part of all this is that once those rights we keep talking about are encroached on, it is a long and bloody process to get them back. It's not about keeping the kids safe, it's about the rich and powerful keeping themselves in that position, and they will use every method at their disposal to encourage ever encroaching legislation to perpetuate their position. Between the terrorist bogeyman targeted at the male audience, and the pedophile bogeyman targeted at the female audience, you are selling yourselves out as a society, and most of you don't even understand why, or who really benefits from it.

On a final note, kudos for trying to debate it, and coming back to that debate, when you're clearly in the minority opinion here (to be diplomatic about it). Discussion promotes thinking about the issues, and that might eventually lead to some progress.

[LFLee]

I stop taking pictures of people after reading these incidents. But yesterday in my local pond 2 young college girls actually come and ask me to take pictures of them since they said I must take pictures better than they can with their P&S - I gladly agreed.
Then I walk to the other side of the pond and see a guy and two girls playing at the falls with swim suit, the guy is doing some stunt so I aim the camera at him and start to take some picture with him and the falls. The other two girls then seem really jealous and ask me to take photos of them as well. They post for me and is really having fun.

I guess is my lucky day, or just everyone have a good mood that day.

I found that more and more young girls with all those phone cameras realizes that people with big camera took nicer pictures than their camera phone and are happy to pose for you. Women in certain age is definitely more aggressive/protective. Guys are generally OK if you took picture of them.

I hope the society is more open minded towards this....
Personally, I would be flatten if someone want to take my photo, no one ever did!

Lee

[HockeyDad]

As a parent, I do not let my kids walk to school unsupervised, play in a park unsupervised, use a computer/iPad/etc... unsupervised. Heck, they don't even have cell phones, so they're not "sexting" anyone. However, you're likely to find photographs of them on this very forum, on facebook, flickr, etc... My youngest has even been in the local paper.

As far as I'm concerned, people are free to photograph my kids when they are out in public. I am just as free to politely ask them to stop, remove my kids from public, or as I've mentioned before, shoot back.

I guess some must think I'm a terrible parent for wanting my children to be able to use a camera in public when they grow up. You know, I'm not really happy when people use fowl language around them in restaurants either, but I've grown rather fond of free speech and would like to preserve that for their generation as well.

A society without freedom is a society that lives in tyranny. I'm willing to bet that our kids won't be any safer in that society... although I'm sure we'll think they are... you know... without that pesky freedom of the press to inform us otherwise.

[magkelly]

You really don't get to say that, yet. Maybe in a few years, with the way the paranoia and mass hysteria is rising, but you do NOT get to compare your situation to men's in this context.

Uh actually I live in a place where there have been a lot of female molesters caught lately and I do think maybe upon reflection that it has had a considerable impact upon my ability as a woman to take pics unhindered. These cases are not in decline where I live. Far from it actually.

People that never used to look twice at me or ask questions, but now they ask and some even get hostile seeing my camera now. No, it's not as bad as for men, not yet, but it's definitely been getting there. FYI, I'm not some young cute thing anymore. Yeah, justice can be too partial to a pretty face. A 20 something Debra whatsherface type might get a slap on the wrist but probably not someone like me. I'm more than old enough that a judge would likely be far more harsh on me than someone young like that so any perceived advantage I might have as a female wouldn't be all that likely actually.

We have had a lot of stranger cases, a lot of pedo women getting caught. My town things that are not the "usual" in terms of molestation cases are getting to be way too common. Several of the female teacher cases hitting the national news they're basically happening in my backyard. It's been a really creepy thing living here of late and watching the news.

This place has changed drastically since I was a kid that way. When I was a kid growing up here the only thing most people had to worry about that way was a friend's bad uncle or a smarmy softball coach maybe. Females abusing young children? That just never occurred to anyone. It was so rare that no one really paid attention to it even when it did happen. But it's not like that now. People are starting to wake up to the fact that women can be sexual abusers too and it's about time, IMHO.

I think that day is pretty much upon us, where that situation is equalizing. At the rate it's going here I don't think it will be too long before the perception and the law being so lenient with women does change. They can't just keep doing nothing hardly. People are getting too aware and too ticked off at the women offenders to let that keep happening. I don't think it should matter at all which gender the offender is myself. Both genders should be treated equally under the law, period.

All I am saying is it's not so easy not to be paranoid anymore. Maybe that's not the case where other people live. Maybe they still have some sense of normalcy and security, but we just don't in my family, not anymore. We've just seen too much happen that some people keep saying isn't happening, shrug.