[Ratmagiclady]

I agree with this. the core of this discussion shouldn't be the tool, but the humans using the tool. its a shame that we address such issues by trying to define whats a 'tool' and what is a 'weapon', so that we can easily say 'this ones is illegal and dangerous' and this one is 'necessary and good for society'.


I look at it like this: when human civilization no longer needs weapons as offensive and defensive tools used against one another, we will as a species simply stop using them. I think it really is that simple. we are a species that is very good at dropping one thing in favor of something better. thats evolution at its best. the problem is, we haven't evolved to that point yet.

that doesn't mean we shouldn't be discussing any of this, no not at all, but I think in the grand scheme of things we are trying to rid ourselves of something that is still necessary as a tool, in the hopes of attaining a way of life we aren't yet ready or willing to adopt, as a species.

Well, that goes to two places: one, I think, that while weapons are tools, that doesn't mean that society doesn't have an interest in setting some rules, so to speak, and I mean on a technical sort of level. There's a point, (One which I think does vary by locale and circumstance) where a given weapon goes past being an 'equalizer' and instead becomes something that makes little warlords.

*Saying* that a weapon is just an essentially morally-neutral tool, for one, doesn't actually mean there aren't differences between them, and, relatively-speaking, where they belong. It's just not an all-or-nothing proposition.

One of the root problems there is perhaps the way we've got kind of a pretty big thread of violence and fear in our culture: from the evening news to entertainment, you've kind of got a situation where the world's *portrayed* as pretty violent and scary, ...and with violence as the way to deal with these fears and problems, or too much of one. There certainly is a degree of *clinging* to these things, and it tends to be pretty clear from, for instance, watching basic cable down here: apart from PBS stations, most of what's there is about people being pretty horrible to each other. (Plus every other station seeming to be Evangelical programming *saying* how horrible the rest of the world is. )

Certainly there's such a pervasive portrayal of urban life *as* all dangerous and violent, (I'll be the last to say there aren't problems in that regard, but the portrayal is pretty out of proportion, too: if people don't have a *context* for, say, 'Law and Order' shows, one gets the impression everyone in the city's a psycho killer or criminal or something.

I do think we *have* a lot of violence in our culture and heritage, and it seems one of the best ways we *have* to deal with that is actually something we seem to be reaching for, collectively: as we try to negotiate something of a 'warrior ethic' through myth and story and all, much as our ancestors did, (Perhaps with more lightsabers, cowboy hats, etc) ...and perhaps that's something that has more promise than trying to argue for something universal about them, from certain moralist absolutes, such as 'Guns are good,' 'guns are bad,' or 'guns are necessary evils.'

One thing we do have going for ourselves is that we do have a certain amount of accumulated wisdom on these matters, and that may actually be a more practical way than we tend to give it credit for, for us to come to some kind of terms with both the tools and how or when they're used.

[FlashCube]

Well, that goes to two places: one, I think, that while weapons are tools, that doesn't mean that society doesn't have an interest in setting some rules, so to speak, and I mean on a technical sort of level. There's a point, (One which I think does vary by locale and circumstance) where a given weapon goes past being an 'equalizer' and instead becomes something that makes little warlords.

*Saying* that a weapon is just an essentially morally-neutral tool, for one, doesn't actually mean there aren't differences between them, and, relatively-speaking, where they belong. It's just not an all-or-nothing proposition.

One of the root problems there is perhaps the way we've got kind of a pretty big thread of violence and fear in our culture: from the evening news to entertainment, you've kind of got a situation where the world's *portrayed* as pretty violent and scary, ...and with violence as the way to deal with these fears and problems, or too much of one. There certainly is a degree of *clinging* to these things, and it tends to be pretty clear from, for instance, watching basic cable down here: apart from PBS stations, most of what's there is about people being pretty horrible to each other. (Plus every other station seeming to be Evangelical programming *saying* how horrible the rest of the world is. )

Certainly there's such a pervasive portrayal of urban life *as* all dangerous and violent, (I'll be the last to say there aren't problems in that regard, but the portrayal is pretty out of proportion, too: if people don't have a *context* for, say, 'Law and Order' shows, one gets the impression everyone in the city's a psycho killer or criminal or something.

I do think we *have* a lot of violence in our culture and heritage, and it seems one of the best ways we *have* to deal with that is actually something we seem to be reaching for, collectively: as we try to negotiate something of a 'warrior ethic' through myth and story and all, much as our ancestors did, (Perhaps with more lightsabers, cowboy hats, etc) ...and perhaps that's something that has more promise than trying to argue for something universal about them, from certain moralist absolutes, such as 'Guns are good,' 'guns are bad,' or 'guns are necessary evils.'

One thing we do have going for ourselves is that we do have a certain amount of accumulated wisdom on these matters, and that may actually be a more practical way than we tend to give it credit for, for us to come to some kind of terms with both the tools and how or when they're used.

The rule of law is already in place. However, the ability to defend oneself legally varies from state to state.

[séamuis]

I think we have already come to terms with the tools and how and when they are used. we came to terms with that at least (keeping within the context of the discussion) firearms, a very long time ago. how we use firearms hasn't changed since they were invented. their everyday use is exactly the same. so I think, that would more or less be an attempt at redefining them for the sake of attempting to put them into a 'modern' context, and thats just unnecessary as far as I see it. on that note, the society in which they are used (the people who use them and the people who are affected by their use either directly or indirectly. i.e. all of us) has also not changed, at least not significantly enough to warrant some sort of redefining. I won't argue your points on a lot of society blowing things out of proportion through their own ignorance of the world around them (as you exampled by the television making the entire world seem like the end of days is near) but I think it would be somewhat foolish to think that we have as a society come to some elevated or rather evolved level over the people who defined the use of and the view of firearms in society. we haven't, we are just the same as they were. so I think it isn't a case of trying to 'simply' define them as 'tools' vs something more fitting as in 'dangerous weapon' its a case of trying to define who we are as people and what kind of society we live in. and the truth is, we live in a society no different than the previous ones that used and defined the firearm as a tool. this goes back to my previous post, in that when we as a species evolve to the state of no longer needing such tools, we will stop using them. that may seem like a simple answer, but if you really think about it, it makes sense and I think trying to redefine tools to something more complex for the sake of making laws only complicates something that we simply have no power to change overnight. when humans no longer need such tools they will go by the wayside, but not a day before. so I think discussing the definition of 'tool' or 'weapon' and the inherent benefits on society that may be achieved is both fruitless and somewhat ignorant. suffice to say , that discussing the tool is the wrong subject focus and instead we should be discussing the society and its use for the tool.

[magkelly]

This may sound like fear mongering on my part but actually this is me just saying the literal facts.

Last week here they've arrested 3 teenagers here who were planning on shooting a kid at their school. Several likely illegal guns were in the car when they were caught. We've had 3 high violence armed home invasions, several murders (Though not all were gun related. A couple were but one guy he used a brick, another a garden tool.) a couple of rather violent convenience store robberies, several muggings at local stores, a security guard for a park was shot and killed, and there were a couple of widely reported rapes. Never mind the petty thefts, cars broken into, presents vanishing from under Christmas trees while people are out that kind of thing. The other stuff, that's just in one fairly normal week around here...

Oh and I got my change purse taken out of my hand at the local flea market. I was paying for something and he grabbed it right out of my hand before I could even gasp and ran. I lost my last $20 to a very quick and bold petty thief, though that was a few weeks ago. Fortunately he didn't get my actual wallet with my ID and such or I'd have been really screwed.

The funny thing is they keep telling us all that local crime stats are down, but I can't go out after dark anymore alone. We can't even let my nieces stand at a local bus stop here without wondering if they are safe. Women and girls are getting messed with on a regular basis there and at the malls. They're just getting to the same age now that I was when I first started going via bus to the mall on a regular basis with friends and yet my sister in law she's absolutely adamant, with good reason, that they are not going, even in a pack, unless there's an adult with them and they're going by car.

I was all over this town at an age where I was barely older than they are now. I was totally into riding the local bus system and hitting every flea market, beach, library or mall within a 50 mile radius just to do it some days, to be independent, spend a day on my own, away from the adults. My nieces? They will likely never get to do that. That's sad. We never had to have metal detectors at schools when I was a kid here. Kids could actually take buses and have p/t jobs in local malls and they didn't have to vaguely worry about mall shooters. The paper route thing, that was some kid's first big job thing. Now? Almost all carriers for our local paper are adults over 18 (a kid can't have a route without a supervising, driving adult) and even though they carry no cash on them, and everybody knows that, they're still taking their lives in their hands just to deliver the papers in the early morning. They get mugged, all the time and there has been one carrier even shot past year. There isn't a cab driver, take out place, or convenience store in this town that either isn't armed or thinking real hard about it. They all have security cameras now. There are tons of thugs with guns around here and 90% of them when they get busted (if they get busted) they're holding illegal guns. The only people that aren't getting shot in these incidents are the people who are ARMED.

My brother offered me a pistol and some shooting lessons at the local range for Christmas. His offer. Came out of the blue. I never really even indicated that I wanted to go there to him, but he just offered. That's how nervous he's getting about my safety here. He knows I carry several knives, and a stick. He's a freakin ex-Army career guy (retired now) and he's thinking of arming and training his "little sister" for Christmas. That's pretty intense. Particularly since this is a fairly small city, more of a big town really. Over the bridge that's "The City" and that's where all this kind of thing is supposed to be happening. This isn't supposed to be how it is in the burbs, but guess what it IS.

When they can keep ALL illegal guns out of the hands of thugs then they can talk about taking ours. Until then I don't think the government has much to say about the people carrying legally here. Yeah, there are a few mental people who shouldn't be carrying, people do slip through the cracks once in a while, even with the rules they have, but I still don't think that the legal owners are the issue. They're always trying to say it is, but that's pretty much ignoring reality IMHO. If someone wants to get a gun that badly to do real harm with it no anti-gun law is going to stop them. The bad guns are out there. But if they come to my house? They're going to live to regret it if I have any say in the matter.

I don't want to kill someone. That's not the goal, but I wouldn't hesitate to shoot if my home was invaded like that. It's not the "stuff" that I care about. I'm not going to let my roommates get raped or killed if a bullet will stop it. I shouldn't have to even think about that happening but when it happens 10 blocks from where you live in the "better" part of town with alarming regularity, your mindset just changes. I'm a peaceful person, really, but I'm getting pushed to a place that I don't want to be in by what's been happening around here.

Fact is I'm 100% ready to move, but my folks are elderly and they won't go. My brother and sister move a lot because of work obligations. Even though he's out my brother works in the military and they go from base to base every few years. For a while now they've been here but we don't expect that to last for much longer. Basically they're too busy or often not available to help with the folks a lot. The other kids, they visit once every year, or every 5, or not at all, depending upon the kid.

No self-pity thing, that's just my job. I am "that" kid in my family, the only one with the time and no kids who can be there. That's my folk's choice. They just trust me to get things done and not to mess with them, make sure people they deal with are honest with them about money and things. Dad's near deaf and he's always handled the money. He's getting up there, someone has to watch his back a little more now. Do things for them. Changing a light bulb outside is a major project for them now. All the little house things he used to do? All the meals and most of the shopping? I do that stuff for them now. I don't mind really. They take good care of me too. They've been there a lot for me with my work situation being so erratic. If it wasn't for them I wouldn't own the tin roof over my head, even with roommates it just wouldn't fly, and that's no joke. In any case I'm not really sure moving is the answer.

It's actually getting pretty hard to outrun that kind of thing happening no matter where you go anymore. In the USA nowhere is truly safe anymore, even the safety of small towns is just becoming one big illusion. Maybe if I moved to the boonies in Alaska but otherwise, not much difference...

[Parallax]

I don't want to kill someone. That's not the goal, but I wouldn't hesitate to shoot if my home was invaded like that. It's not the "stuff" that I care about. I'm not going to let my roommates get raped or killed if a bullet will stop it. I shouldn't have to even think about that happening but when it happens 10 blocks from where you live in the "better" part of town with alarming regularity, your mindset just changes. I'm a peaceful person, really, but I'm getting pushed to a place that I don't want to be in by what's been happening around here.

As long as you go into it with that attitude, you'll be fine and will sleep better at night.

Maybe if I moved to the boonies in Alaska but otherwise, not much difference...

No, you need even bigger guns there. I spent 4 years in Fairbanks. I will tell you that the farther off of the main road you get, the harder it is to find someone who isn't armed; but more so for protection from Family Ursidae than Hominidae

......several murders (Though not all were gun related. A couple were but one guy he used a brick, another a garden tool.)

We need stricter brick and garden tool control. Background checks, licensing, limit the number of bricks anybody can own, require them to be kept in a safe, etc.

...and there were a couple of widely reported rapes.

Discussion of what needs to be controlled there, and how to do it, is best left to a different forum.