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10-20-2011, 08:03 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I have seen too many situations in the paper and local news where unarmed store clerks complied and got blown away whereas some of the armed ones are still around. However, I am actually more concerned in some of the state and national forests when doing research or nature photography of running into some of the psycho serial killer types like the Helton guy that got busted for robbing a sunday school teacher and taking her to the atm and them to the forest and chopping her head off.
Last year I hiked the entire Appalachian Trail from Georgia to Maine, which goes through a number of National Forests and Parks. The woods are probably the safest place you can find in this country, period. If you just walk half a mile or so away from the road in on a trail, you will already have created an effort-barrier that 99% of criminals are too lazy to overcome.

[edit] Notably your story ENDED in the forest, and didn't begin there. You are more likely to be followed to the forest once you have made yourself very conspicuous in town or dumped there after being assaulted in a more populous area than you are to ever encounter problems if the forest was your destination in the first place.

10-20-2011, 09:25 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by v5planet Quote
Last year I hiked the entire Appalachian Trail from Georgia to Maine, which goes through a number of National Forests and Parks. The woods are probably the safest place you can find in this country, period. If you just walk half a mile or so away from the road in on a trail, you will already have created an effort-barrier that 99% of criminals are too lazy to overcome.

[edit] Notably your story ENDED in the forest, and didn't begin there. You are more likely to be followed to the forest once you have made yourself very conspicuous in town or dumped there after being assaulted in a more populous area than you are to ever encounter problems if the forest was your destination in the first place.
*This part is where you are incorrect. These Hilton stories started and ended there.*
I never specifically mentioned the Appalachian trail. However, the Hilton character I mentioned has been tried and found guilty of murder here in Tallahassee is also on trial for murder in Ga and S.C. He lived in the forests and preyed on folks in those settings. The Appalachian trail has had its cases over the decades as well. Every thing is great out there. But when you do run into the rare nut job, you are on your own.

He was convicted in Tallahasee of this murder in the Apalachicola National Forest

CSI: Apalachicola National Forest Murder of Cheryl Dunlap - Tallahassee Crime | Examiner.com

He also was arrested for this couples murder. They disappeared hiking in the Pisgah National Forest near Henderson, NC.

Serial Killer Gary Hilton Indicted in Murders of John and Irene Bryant | WSPA
Hilton was also convicted and is serving a life sentence for his conviction related to the 2008 murder of hiker Meridith Emerson in Northern Georgia.

I am not an urbanite by any stretch of the imagination. I also no of a grizzly murder of 4 atv-ers back in the late 80s near where I used to live. They are still unsolved and occurred on Walden's Ridge near Chattanooga. Some of these guys were active military on leave.


Regarding the Appalachian Trail, it is relatively safe like many outdoor venues. However, it still requires attention to detail and safety.

QuoteQuote:
Appalachian Trail Murders

The Appalachian Trail, like most parks and hiking areas in America is relatively safe. With over 3 million hikers visiting various sections of the trail per year, there have only been 9 murders along the trail since 1974, and according to the ATC an average of about 1 rape every 3 years.
One unusual aspect about the Appalachian Trail murders is that three incidents have been double murders. In two of those cases one of the victims was male.
  • Georgia - May 1974, Joel Polsom, 26, of Hartsville, South Carolina was murdered and his female companion kidnapped by the killer at the Low Gap Trail Shelter in White County Georgia, which is in the Chattahoochee National Forest. Michigan fugitive Ralph Fox was later captured
  • Tennessee - April 1975, Thru-hiker Janice Balza, 22, of Madison, Wisconsin was killed by a hatchet at Vandeventer shelter in northeast Tennessee. Hiker/tree surgeon Paul Bigley, 51, was convicted of her murder and died in prison .
  • Virginia - May 1981, Susan Ramsay murdered while hiking along the AT with Robert Mountford Jr. Murderer Randall Smith was paroled after only 15 years for this double murder. After his release Smith tried to kill to two more people in the same area.
  • Virginia - May 1981, Robert Mountford Jr. (and Susan Ramsay) were murdered while hiking along the AT. Murderer Randall Smith who was paroled after only 15 years and years later returned to the same area and tried to kill two more people.
  • Pennsylvania - May 12, 1988, Rebecca Wight was shot dead and her partner, Claudia Brenner, was seriously wounded.
  • Pennsylvania - September 12, 1990, Molly LaRue, 25, of Shaker Heights, Ohio and her fiancé from Tennessee were killed at the Thelma Marks Shelter on the AT south of Duncannon, Pa
  • Pennsylvania - September 12, 1990, Geoffrey Hood, 26, of Signal Mountain, Tennessee was shot to death as he slept in the Thelma Marks Shelter on the A.T. south of Duncannon, Pa
  • Shenandoah National Park, Virginia - May 28, 1996, Julianne Williams, 24, (and Lollie Winans) were bound and had their throats cut while hiking and camping near Bridle Trail and the Appalachian Trail. There bodies were found less than 1/4 mile from the road. This crime remains unsolved.
  • Shenandoah National Park, Virginia - May 28, 1996, Lollie Winans, 26 (and Julianne Williams) were bound and had their throats cut while hiking and camping near Bridle Trail and the Appalachian Trail. This crime remains unsolved.

Random thoughts about the murders that have happened along the Appalachian Trail.
  • Of the 9 murders listed above
Female or solo hikers should not go into an empty shelter and unpack all your gear for the evening. Wait to see who else shows up. If you feel uncomfortable, leave and set up camp somewhere else.
SEO - Appalachian Trail Murders
10-20-2011, 10:04 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I never specifically mentioned the Appalachian trail. However, the Hilton character I mentioned has been tried and found guilty of murder here in Tallahassee is also on trial for murder in Ga and S.C. He lived in the forests and preyed on folks in those settings. The Appalachian trail has had its cases over the decades as well. Every thing is great out there. But when you do run into the rare nut job, you are on your own.

He was convicted in Tallahasee of this murder in the Apalachicola National Forest

CSI: Apalachicola National Forest Murder of Cheryl Dunlap - Tallahassee Crime | Examiner.com

He also was arrested for this couples murder. They disappeared hiking in the Pisgah National Forest near Henderson, NC.

Serial Killer Gary Hilton Indicted in Murders of John and Irene Bryant | WSPA
Hilton was also convicted and is serving a life sentence for his conviction related to the 2008 murder of hiker Meridith Emerson in Northern Georgia.

I am not an urbanite by any stretch of the imagination. I also no of a grizzly murder of 4 atv-ers back in the late 80s near where I used to live. They are still unsolved and occurred on Walden's Ridge near Chattanooga. Some of these guys were active military on leave.


Regarding the Appalachian Trail, it is relatively safe like many outdoor venues. However, it still requires attention to detail and safety.

SEO - Appalachian Trail Murders
I apologize, I did not know the circumstances of the Hilton murders.

Unfortunately, I'm familiar with the stories of most of those murders and have slept at both Low Gap and Vandeventer Shelters. The story of the two women killed in '96 is particularly well known, because Bill Bryson mentions it in his book, "A Walk in the Woods". It is thought that they were followed back to the trail after drawing attention to themselves partying in a nearby town. That stretch of the AT crosses Skyline Drive at least every other mile for the full length of Shenandoah National Park and is very well traveled, so a deranged person doesn't have to work very hard to access his intended victims. Most of the other murders in that list were also near major trail hubs or recreational areas (Vandeventer Shelter is close to Watauga Lake, which has a public beach that many hikers linger at before pressing on; and the Trail goes directly down the streets of Duncannon, PA, where most hikers crash for a day or two).

I certainly wouldn't advocate thinking no harm can come to you in the woods, and sadly, people do terrible things to each other everywhere. You're right, that nowhere is perfectly safe. But the AT travels through 14 states, and has been around a long time. If you were to draw a 2200-mile line through pretty much any part of this country and plot murders along it over the course of 40 years, you could do far, far worse than the list you posted above. I don't think it is worth stressing over potential assailants in the woods, especially if you're keeping a low profile. I have been asked many, many times whether I carried a gun, knives or pepper spray with me on my thruhike, and my response has become more incredulous every time. I encountered maybe two people in 6 months who did this, and they were so overzealous about protecting themselves that they made the rest of us uncomfortable.
10-20-2011, 10:19 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by v5planet Quote
I apologize, I did not know the circumstances of the Hilton murders.

Unfortunately, I'm familiar with the stories of most of those murders and have slept at both Low Gap and Vandeventer Shelters. The story of the two women killed in '96 is particularly well known, because Bill Bryson mentions it in his book, "A Walk in the Woods". It is thought that they were followed back to the trail after drawing attention to themselves partying in a nearby town. That stretch of the AT crosses Skyline Drive at least every other mile for the full length of Shenandoah National Park and is very well traveled, so a deranged person doesn't have to work very hard to access his intended victims. Most of the other murders in that list were also near major trail hubs or recreational areas (Vandeventer Shelter is close to Watauga Lake, which has a public beach that many hikers linger at before pressing on; and the Trail goes directly down the streets of Duncannon, PA, where most hikers crash for a day or two).

I certainly wouldn't advocate thinking no harm can come to you in the woods, and sadly, people do terrible things to each other everywhere. You're right, that nowhere is perfectly safe. But the AT travels through 14 states, and has been around a long time. If you were to draw a 2200-mile line through pretty much any part of this country and plot murders along it over the course of 40 years, you could do far, far worse than the list you posted above. I don't think it is worth stressing over potential assailants in the woods, especially if you're keeping a low profile. I have been asked many, many times whether I carried a gun, knives or pepper spray with me on my thruhike, and my response has become more incredulous every time. I encountered maybe two people in 6 months who did this, and they were so overzealous about protecting themselves that they made the rest of us uncomfortable.
I certainly don't advocate being over zealous that is for sure. That could aggravate the situation. I try to keep a low profile whether its in the woods, on the water, or on the street. Sometimes the act of photography will attract attention in itself. I try to be aware of what is going on around me at all times. Of course, I have to routinely be aware of gators, cotton mouths and black bears more so than people. The cotton mouths are the only creatures that give me the most concern.

10-20-2011, 10:24 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
The cotton mouths are the only creatures that give me the most concern.
Yeah, I've heard those things attack without provocation. I had friends who kayaked up the Shenandoah River instead of hiking through the Park, and their boat was chased by snapping cottonmouths. My greatest concern in the woods is generally ticks. No one wants Lyme disease! =\

For better or for worse, you can usually hear everything else coming in the quiet of the woods.
10-20-2011, 11:58 AM - 1 Like   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Personally I think anyone that carries a weapon outside of a warzone is a moron,
Well this moron has had three occurrences where carrying a weapon kept him from being mugged or worse. One of the three was partially my fault since I was at a place where in daylight I would have been fine but just after dark was a different matter. Once I was simply going about my daily business and once when I was going to pick up my son I made a wrong turn ending up in one of the worst areas of Jacksonville at that time (he tried to open my car door and I ran the redlight while he was backing away from my 9mm). I'm one of the rough people who stand ready to visit harm upon those who would threaten us, our family or friends but if you want to be one of the sheeple who hope they get out of the furball unscathed, be my guest. Oh and by the way, it's becoming consensus among criminals that leaving a witness is not a good idea.

For those who don't want to carry a firearm, there is this little item called an Asp. It is a expandable steel baton that opens up with a flick of the wrist. Check your local laws however as in some areas this is considered a concealed weapon and would require a permit. I wouldn't attempt to use one against a mutt with a gun but applied to the knee or arm of someone trying to intimidate you, they can be quite effective. Plus breaking a mutts kneecap or arm usually won't get you into near as much trouble (without a permit) as a firearm will. And for goodness sake people. If you are out shooting (photos), think about how much damage you can do with a monopod. Batter up!

CW

I really had to laugh at this entire thread as at another forum I belong to, there is a debate over whether to concealed carry with permit in church.

Last edited by straightshooter; 10-20-2011 at 12:11 PM. Reason: Addendum
10-21-2011, 09:04 AM   #52
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Hello again, I am from Britlandcestershire and we arent allowed to carry anything bigger than a hobby swiss army knife such as a Victorinox or Wengen.

What does it mean when a person in the USA talks about a concealed weapon?

I know that you have the right to bear arms ( a bit more sinsible than arm bears) but does this mean a gun must be in a holster and on full view etc.

Please help me understand

Why do I get searched on my way into Disney, Universl Studios and Kennedy Space Centre...I suspect that weapons are a no no

I have seen tazer type things on sale in regular stores like Walmart in the USA, what is the rule with these things which would get you arrested again in England.

We now need a full firearms certificate for airguns with more power than 11 footpounds including .177 and .22 and all .36 airguns need a full FAC irrespective of footpounds of spring power or pneumatic power.

Thanks

Varkie

10-21-2011, 09:36 AM - 1 Like   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aardvark Quote
What does it mean when a person in the USA talks about a concealed weapon?

I know that you have the right to bear arms ( a bit more sinsible than arm bears) but does this mean a gun must be in a holster and on full view etc.
Varkie,
It depends on the state. Most states issue some form of permit for a concealed weapon (Illinois excepted). In some states this means only a firearm and in other states it can be any form of legal weapon. Vermont does not issue any permits and all citizens legally allowed to own a firearm are permitted to carry it. At least one state allows open carry of a firearm without permit but if it is concealed you must have a permit. As to the permit process, it generally requires being fingerprinted and having a background check run at both the state and federal levels. In other words, you are checked out by the state police and the FBI. I have had concealed weapons permits in both Florida and Georgia. In Florida until just recently if you were carrying a concealed firearm, say under a jacket, and the wind blows the jacket open so that others could see the firearm, you could be arrested for openly carrying a firearm in public. This was just changed. Also some states have a "shall issue" policy which means if you apply for a concealed carry permit and you pass all the background checks, the state must issue you the permit. Other states like California have a "may issue" policy. This means that if you apply for a permit and know enough important people, are a politician or Hollywood star, you can get a permit but if you are the average person on the street, good luck because you "may" or "may not" get a permit. Only Illinois denies it's citizens at least some avenue of self-protection with no process at all for any concealed weapon.

Now for the really screwy court ruling. In any city/state that requires registration of firearms with the police, convicted felons are exempt from the registration requirement. This is because a convicted felon cannot, by law, own a firearm and if he/she were to register it, they would be incriminating themselves which is a violation of the 5th amendment.

Oh and regarding Tazers, again it varies by state law.

You can go here for more information.

CW

Last edited by straightshooter; 10-21-2011 at 09:42 AM.
10-21-2011, 09:55 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by straightshooter Quote
Varkie,

Only Illinois denies it's citizens at least some avenue of self-protection ....
CW
Somewhat charged and misleading language here. I'm sure that a gun is not the only way you can think of for self protection.
This is the sort of language that NRA boobies use. Rational people use more rational wording.
10-21-2011, 10:19 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Somewhat charged and misleading language here. I'm sure that a gun is not the only way you can think of for self protection.
This is the sort of language that NRA boobies use. Rational people use more rational wording.
Well, this NRA boobie thanks you. When the state says you can't carry a weapon to defend yourself, how would you phrase it oh rational one?

C(NRA Life Member)W
10-21-2011, 12:36 PM - 1 Like   #56
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"Personal protection" pistols are more likely to be used on family and friends than on outside attackers, and that's a fact. Especially when the owners have had zero training in firearms use. I'm a trained killer (i.e. ex-soldier). I was on a .45 ACP marksmanship team. I've also trained on and used and owned other personal weapons. And those I've retained are kept broken-down in separate double-locked containers in very secure places. There is NO WAY that I would carry those in public.

Why keep them? Habit. A couple were inherited from ex-police relatives. But I certainly don't see them as useful for personal protection. Every now and then we take them out for target practice. I think in USA, it's good to know (to KNOW! to be TRAINED!) how to handle firearms. And to know (to KNOW! to be TRAINED!) when and when not to possess and use them. Untrained gunowners are like untrained dogs, only worse. We license dogs (and cats!) and handguns should be more restricted.

Possession grants one a sense of power, a delusion of adequacy. Oh yeah, the Equalizer! Being unarmed and vulnerable forces us to keep our senses honed, to anticipate and avoid trouble. If you've gotten yourself into a situation where firepower is the only recourse, you've made some serious mistakes. Pulling a weapon just compounds your f*ckups.
10-21-2011, 02:15 PM - 1 Like   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
"Personal protection" pistols are more likely to be used on family and friends than on outside attackers, and that's a fact.
Quote your source?

For goodness sakes people, it's simple. If you live in a society that doesn't allow weapon ownership, obey the law. If you live in a society that allows ownership of weapons and you don't want to own one or don't want to stand to arms if threatened, then don't. If you are allowed ownership and you are willing to protect yourself, then do so within the law. Nobody here is going to change any other person's opinion on an issue like this and we are so far off the OP. Just buy a pepper spray and hope if you use it the wind doesn't blow it back in your face.

And anyone who thinks they are in mortal danger when out photographing here in Atlanta hasn't driven on I-75 or I-85 at any time of the day. That will make an atheist pray.

CW
10-21-2011, 04:26 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by straightshooter Quote
ell this moron has had three occurrences where carrying a weapon kept him from being mugged or worse. One of the three was partially my fault since I was at a place where in daylight I would have been fine but just after dark was a different matter. Once I was simply going about my daily business and once when I was going to pick up my son I made a wrong turn ending up in one of the worst areas of Jacksonville at that time (he tried to open my car door and I ran the redlight while he was backing away from my 9mm)
you know you could have locked your car doors, you know. Though i'm hardly surprised that such a simple solution completely escaped you.

QuoteOriginally posted by straightshooter Quote
I'm one of the rough people who stand ready to visit harm upon those who would threaten us, our family or friends but if you want to be one of the sheeple who hope they get out of the furball unscathed, be my guest. Oh and by the way, it's becoming consensus among criminals that leaving a witness is not a good idea.
More big talk, i'm just so impressed. And yes I know how to get myself out of a dangerous situation by myself, and I have done it plenty of times and more to the point: without any weapons, personal injury was unavoidable but I heal quickly. And your comment about criminals not liking to leave witnesses behind sounds like some paranoiac spiel from the NRA - oh yes, I know who they are.

QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
Possession grants one a sense of power, a delusion of adequacy. Oh yeah, the Equalizer! Being unarmed and vulnerable forces us to keep our senses honed, to anticipate and avoid trouble. If you've gotten yourself into a situation where firepower is the only recourse, you've made some serious mistakes. Pulling a weapon just compounds your f*ckups.
I agree.In the context of personal security: If violence is the only answer, then I would like to know what the question was.
10-21-2011, 04:48 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
you know you could have locked your car doors, you know. Though i'm hardly surprised that such a simple solution completely escaped you.

More big talk, i'm just so impressed. And yes I know how to get myself out of a dangerous situation by myself, and I have done it plenty of times and more to the point: without any weapons, personal injury was unavoidable but I heal quickly. And your comment about criminals not liking to leave witnesses behind sounds like some paranoiac spiel from the NRA - oh yes, I know who they are.
The doors were locked but maybe you didn't know the simple fact that car windows will break. lol

Actually the bit about not leaving witnesses comes from a law enforcement source I happen to know. Yes I'm a member of the NRA and quite proud of the fact. Paranoid? I'm not paranoid...wait, what was that? Be back in a minute, I heard a noise. {wanders off muttering about people out to get me doesn't mean I'm paranoid}

Grinning, ducking and running,
CW
10-21-2011, 05:02 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by straightshooter Quote
Quote your source?
Sorry, I misspoke earlier. It's even worse. Gunowners are more likely to turn their weapons on themselves than on anyone else. Handgun suicides outnumber homicides, 55% to 40%, the other 5% being accidents. Deliberate firearms injuries outnumber accidental injuries by just 2:1. I'll try to dig up numbers of strangers vs known assailants. Meanwhile, see this (which I dug up with the briefest search):

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'll repeat: Gunowners are more likely to shoot themselves than anyone else. Stay tuned for more numbers.

Personal note: I've been too close to victims of firearm accidents: my cousin, and a neighbor's son, and another neighbor, all killed while "playing around" with guns. In USA we treat deadly weapons as toys. This is insane. I've several relatives who were cops, some very prominent, and they all knew co-workers who ate their pistols. This is tragic. We cannot trivialize the danger of firearms possession.

EDIT: Ok, here it is from http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-kellermann.htm

QuoteQuote:
Keeping a gun in the home carries a murder risk 2.7 times greater than not keeping one, according to a study by Arthur Kellermann. The National Rifle Association has fiercely attacked this study, but it remains valid despite its criticisms. The study found that people are 21 times more likely to be killed by someone they know than a stranger breaking into the house. Half of the murders were over arguments or romantic triangles. The study also found that the increased murder rate in gun-owning households was entirely due to an increase in gun homicides only, not any other murder method. It further found that gun-owning households saw an increased murder risk by family or intimate acquaintances, not by strangers or non-intimate acquaintances. The most straightforward explanation is that the presence of a gun increases the possibility that a normal family fight or drinking binge will become deadly. No other explanation fits the above facts.

Last edited by RioRico; 10-21-2011 at 05:14 PM.
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