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MrPetkus · 11-30-2011, 06:12 PM

Folks,
I'm in a position where I've been asked to shoot modelling pics of a kid for her agent. For a bit of background, this is new for me as I specialize in live performances, theater, etc.
Anyway, I'm dealing directly with the mother. I don't have any experience with modeling and agents so I charged a flat sitting fee. The pics are were posted password-protected on a photography site. The idea was that the mom and the agent would choose what pics they liked and order the prints through the site.

At least that's how I thought it would go. Now I learn the agent doesn't want to log on and view the pics online. They want the images copied to a CD or memory stick for selection. I'm not into this because that's not how I typically do business, I don't sell digital downloads and, well, I'm just not sure how to proceed.

What's common dealing with modeling agents? What formats do they expect and how to they expect photographs to be delivered? Is it common to simply provide a CD of pics?

I'm hoping some forum members can offer some insight and clarity.

Thanks

SpecialK · 11-30-2011, 06:53 PM

In the old days you gave them contact sheet or pile of proofs and they marked which ones they wanted.

You have not mentioned if you are charging per print or what, beyond the sitting fee. That sort of affects what you are giving them first.

MrPetkus · 11-30-2011, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by SpecialK

In tho old days you gave them contact sheet or pile of proofs and they marked which ones they wanted.

You have not mentioned if you are charging per print or what, beyond the sitting fee. That sort of affects what you are giving them first.

Beyond the sitting fee, I included both printed contact sheets and a PDF of small images (and the images posted on the web site of course). I made it clear that prints had to ordered through me and all was fine. Now that the agent is requesting a CD with the images I'm not sure how to proceed. So I haven't responded yet and am fishing for info.
I'm concerned that the CD images can be used. Other than that I'm thinking of 1) downsized jpegs and/or 2) watermarking on the CD images. I don't know. Obviously I'm new to dealing with agents but I want to maintain control and an air of experience.

Oog · 11-30-2011, 08:21 PM

Can you first find out a little info about the agency the mother is dealing with? Is it legit? Does it offer classes and is it a registered school under state laws?

Did you make up a contract between you and your client regarding what is to be provided by you and is considered fair use (i.e., they can use the photos for personal use but they are still copyright by you?) Did you write in a contract that you will only provide prints, or only selected digital images for them to print at their leisure if you are not interested in providing prints for them?

If all else fails, give them low resolution digital images (not full res small pictures) that prevents them from either printing them or publishing them on the web with decent quality, so as to protect yourself from being ripped off, until they decide which pictures they want.

Last edited by Oog; 11-30-2011 at 08:33 PM.

Oog · 11-30-2011, 09:04 PM

And if you want to watermark the digital proofs, even better. Splash the word Proof right across the image - use a light color and "Overlay" as the layer mode. Though this is sort of an abuse of a "soft proof" which is usually a color-corrected image.

johnyates · 11-30-2011, 09:37 PM

The agent wants to view the images on his computer. Well, fine, he can do that online as you've set it up. There's no reason you should have to burn him a CD. I cannot help but suspect he wants to print the images himself without paying you. Stand your ground - just say no.

cmohr · 11-30-2011, 09:37 PM

Small low res, with watermark, otherwise back to your original agreement, with them looking online. Sounds like the agent is either a techophobe, and doesnt know how to look at them online, or, trying to pull a fast one.

cscurrier · 11-30-2011, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by cmohr

Sounds like the agent is either a techophobe, and doesnt know how to look at them online, or, trying to pull a fast one.

Chances are you are right either way. Some agencies I've worked with (for video commercials) act like they know the whole program when they really don't... So I bet they're just as confused as you are with this entire transaction. But I agree with all of the above, if they want a cd, give em low res, watermarked images, and if they still complain, tell them that they can still view the images online no problem.

Good luck to you!

MrPetkus · 12-01-2011, 08:57 AM

Got back to the client. Stated that the agent would have the best experience viewing on the website since the pics are higher resolution and not watermarked. I then noted that smaller, watermarked JPEGs could be burned to disk or put in Dropbox. Will see what the reply is and post here.

MRRiley · 12-01-2011, 09:29 AM

You need to watermark your "high-rez" online images and/or do something to protect them from being copied. I know this is not foolproof, but it can introduce "compelling evidence of intentional theft" in a lawsuit if the agent copies the pics and makes prints from your digital files without paying you.

tuco · 12-01-2011, 09:49 AM

I'm not sure there is any legal action for "theft" here. You still have the images. If stolen you would not have them anymore. I think it is more a case of copyright infringement.

MRRiley · 12-01-2011, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by tuco

I'm not sure there is any legal action for "theft" here. You still have the images. If stolen you would not have them anymore. I think it is more a case of copyright infringement.

The "prints" are what the agent would have stolen, not the images, themselves. If someone prints copies of your copyrighted images, bypassing purchasing your prints, that amounts to theft. Theft is the basic legal concept behind copyright protection. It is really no different from reaching into MrPetkus' pocket and taking out $100 or whatever he would have charged for the prints.

tuco · 12-01-2011, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by MRRiley

The "prints" are what the agent would have stolen, not the images, themselves. If someone prints copies of your copyrighted images, bypassing purchasing your prints, that amounts to theft. Theft is the basic legal concept behind copyright protection. It is really no different from reaching into MrPetkus' pocket and taking out $100 or whatever he would have charged for the prints.

I was thinking more along the lines if someone breaks in and steals your hard drive with the original images, the police can take action. Something was stolen. If someone takes a copy of the image, the police will not do anything even though the net result to you is money lost. I believe you'll have to pursue the event as copyright infringement. But I have to say the obligatory words: I am not a lawyer.

MrPetkus · 12-01-2011, 10:51 AM

I agree with the watermarking for everything. I can prohibit downloading of images on the site I use but recently got stung when a friend forwarded to me some newsletters containing live performance pics that I had taken. This from a "reputable", well-known dance studio. Apparently they took screenshots of an entire set of images on my site. I even created a not-for-resale web and print advertising license for them priced cheap at ~ $25/image. Trust is shot.

BTW, MRRiley - your Carpe Luminous domain name has expired.

johnyates · 12-01-2011, 12:13 PM

Another thing. The agent is not your client--the mother is the client. The agent's desires are not your problem. Of course, you are in business to make money, so if the agent wants the CD badly enough, he should certainly be willing to pay you (a hefty sum) for your time and trouble.

11-30-2011, 06:12 PM	#1
MrPetkus Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 387	Info about modeling photography, agents, etc. Folks, I'm in a position where I've been asked to shoot modelling pics of a kid for her agent. For a bit of background, this is new for me as I specialize in live performances, theater, etc. Anyway, I'm dealing directly with the mother. I don't have any experience with modeling and agents so I charged a flat sitting fee. The pics are were posted password-protected on a photography site. The idea was that the mom and the agent would choose what pics they liked and order the prints through the site. At least that's how I thought it would go. Now I learn the agent doesn't want to log on and view the pics online. They want the images copied to a CD or memory stick for selection. I'm not into this because that's not how I typically do business, I don't sell digital downloads and, well, I'm just not sure how to proceed. What's common dealing with modeling agents? What formats do they expect and how to they expect photographs to be delivered? Is it common to simply provide a CD of pics? I'm hoping some forum members can offer some insight and clarity. Thanks

11-30-2011, 06:53 PM	#2
SpecialK Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: So California Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,482	In the old days you gave them contact sheet or pile of proofs and they marked which ones they wanted. You have not mentioned if you are charging per print or what, beyond the sitting fee. That sort of affects what you are giving them first. Last edited by SpecialK; 11-30-2011 at 10:10 PM.

11-30-2011, 09:04 PM	#5
Oog Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 85	And if you want to watermark the digital proofs, even better. Splash the word Proof right across the image - use a light color and "Overlay" as the layer mode. Though this is sort of an abuse of a "soft proof" which is usually a color-corrected image. Attached Images Last edited by Oog; 11-30-2011 at 09:21 PM.

12-01-2011, 09:29 AM	#10
MRRiley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sterling, VA, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,275	You need to watermark your "high-rez" online images and/or do something to protect them from being copied. I know this is not foolproof, but it can introduce "compelling evidence of intentional theft" in a lawsuit if the agent copies the pics and makes prints from your digital files without paying you. Last edited by MRRiley; 12-01-2011 at 10:04 AM.

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11-30-2011, 07:18 PM	#3
MrPetkus Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 387 Original Poster	Originally posted by SpecialK In tho old days you gave them contact sheet or pile of proofs and they marked which ones they wanted. You have not mentioned if you are charging per print or what, beyond the sitting fee. That sort of affects what you are giving them first. Beyond the sitting fee, I included both printed contact sheets and a PDF of small images (and the images posted on the web site of course). I made it clear that prints had to ordered through me and all was fine. Now that the agent is requesting a CD with the images I'm not sure how to proceed. So I haven't responded yet and am fishing for info. I'm concerned that the CD images can be used. Other than that I'm thinking of 1) downsized jpegs and/or 2) watermarking on the CD images. I don't know. Obviously I'm new to dealing with agents but I want to maintain control and an air of experience.

11-30-2011, 08:21 PM	#4
Oog Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 85	Can you first find out a little info about the agency the mother is dealing with? Is it legit? Does it offer classes and is it a registered school under state laws? Did you make up a contract between you and your client regarding what is to be provided by you and is considered fair use (i.e., they can use the photos for personal use but they are still copyright by you?) Did you write in a contract that you will only provide prints, or only selected digital images for them to print at their leisure if you are not interested in providing prints for them? If all else fails, give them low resolution digital images (not full res small pictures) that prevents them from either printing them or publishing them on the web with decent quality, so as to protect yourself from being ripped off, until they decide which pictures they want. Last edited by Oog; 11-30-2011 at 08:33 PM.

11-30-2011, 09:37 PM	#6
johnyates Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Saskatoon, SK Photos: Albums Posts: 1,345	The agent wants to view the images on his computer. Well, fine, he can do that online as you've set it up. There's no reason you should have to burn him a CD. I cannot help but suspect he wants to print the images himself without paying you. Stand your ground - just say no.

11-30-2011, 09:37 PM	#7
cmohr Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Brisbane. Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,824	Small low res, with watermark, otherwise back to your original agreement, with them looking online. Sounds like the agent is either a techophobe, and doesnt know how to look at them online, or, trying to pull a fast one.

11-30-2011, 10:18 PM	#8
cscurrier Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Bellingham, WA Photos: Gallery Posts: 280	Originally posted by cmohr Sounds like the agent is either a techophobe, and doesnt know how to look at them online, or, trying to pull a fast one. Chances are you are right either way. Some agencies I've worked with (for video commercials) act like they know the whole program when they really don't... So I bet they're just as confused as you are with this entire transaction. But I agree with all of the above, if they want a cd, give em low res, watermarked images, and if they still complain, tell them that they can still view the images online no problem. Good luck to you!

12-01-2011, 08:57 AM	#9
MrPetkus Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 387 Original Poster	Got back to the client. Stated that the agent would have the best experience viewing on the website since the pics are higher resolution and not watermarked. I then noted that smaller, watermarked JPEGs could be burned to disk or put in Dropbox. Will see what the reply is and post here.

12-01-2011, 09:49 AM	#11
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,032	I'm not sure there is any legal action for "theft" here. You still have the images. If stolen you would not have them anymore. I think it is more a case of copyright infringement.

12-01-2011, 10:04 AM	#12
MRRiley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sterling, VA, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,275	Originally posted by tuco I'm not sure there is any legal action for "theft" here. You still have the images. If stolen you would not have them anymore. I think it is more a case of copyright infringement. The "prints" are what the agent would have stolen, not the images, themselves. If someone prints copies of your copyrighted images, bypassing purchasing your prints, that amounts to theft. Theft is the basic legal concept behind copyright protection. It is really no different from reaching into MrPetkus' pocket and taking out $100 or whatever he would have charged for the prints.

12-01-2011, 10:15 AM	#13
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,032	Originally posted by MRRiley The "prints" are what the agent would have stolen, not the images, themselves. If someone prints copies of your copyrighted images, bypassing purchasing your prints, that amounts to theft. Theft is the basic legal concept behind copyright protection. It is really no different from reaching into MrPetkus' pocket and taking out $100 or whatever he would have charged for the prints. I was thinking more along the lines if someone breaks in and steals your hard drive with the original images, the police can take action. Something was stolen. If someone takes a copy of the image, the police will not do anything even though the net result to you is money lost. I believe you'll have to pursue the event as copyright infringement. But I have to say the obligatory words: I am not a lawyer.

12-01-2011, 10:51 AM	#14
MrPetkus Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 387 Original Poster	I agree with the watermarking for everything. I can prohibit downloading of images on the site I use but recently got stung when a friend forwarded to me some newsletters containing live performance pics that I had taken. This from a "reputable", well-known dance studio. Apparently they took screenshots of an entire set of images on my site. I even created a not-for-resale web and print advertising license for them priced cheap at ~ $25/image. Trust is shot. BTW, MRRiley - your Carpe Luminous domain name has expired.

12-01-2011, 12:13 PM	#15
johnyates Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Saskatoon, SK Photos: Albums Posts: 1,345	Another thing. The agent is not your client--the mother is the client. The agent's desires are not your problem. Of course, you are in business to make money, so if the agent wants the CD badly enough, he should certainly be willing to pay you (a hefty sum) for your time and trouble.

Info about modeling photography, agents, etc.

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