[magkelly]

I'm probably going to tick some people off for being honest here, but as someone who's been on the stage performing and been in the audience trying to get a few great pics for the scrapbook I'm not a huge fan of flash use in performing venues. It is distracting and potentially dangerous to dancers who may not be able to spot correctly if a flash suddenly goes off at the wrong time. When you're in the middle of a turn or some other complicated movement having a sudden bright light in your face can cause you to trip and maybe injure yourself.

I like having pics of such things, but I would not use a flash out of respect for the performers and their safety. Pro equipment isn't a problem but the use of flash for me would be and if I was doing security there I would have walked you both out unless you had agreed to put the flashes away. Sorry, but I would have. Situations like this are exactly why we have certain grades of film and high iso on digital cameras. I'm all for people getting as good a set of pics as they can and I'm sorry for the loss of the pics above, but IMHO neither of you should even be going there at all, using a pro level flash, particularly for that type of performance. You're potentially putting your subjects at risk, seriously.

I'm sure they love the pics, but how you go about getting them isn't the greatest thing for their safety during the performance. Next time? Since you know them I'd ask if you could attend the dress rehearsal as well. There usually is at least one, sometimes more than one. You can see them in their costumes going full out, but you'll also have time to figure out the tricky lighting situation sans pressure and you can then take pics with the right settings sans flash during the performance without having to worry about getting it right in one shot.

But using a pro flash in a performance like that, a rather big no-no. I've actually seen someone fall because they were too close to the front of the stage when a bright flash went off. This was a musical with a lot of ballet in it. The guy came out of a turn, spotted incorrectly because of the sudden bright light, came down very wrong, and almost wrecked his Achilles tendon because of some guy with a pro set up who was there to get pics for a brochure. He ended up in the ER and it cost him a lot in time, therapy, and unfortunately the role he'd been preparing for for months. They did ban flash use in that venue after that and while some of the people who went there were likely annoyed it was a much better thing for the performers.

I don't mean to rag you, not really, but just a strong caution because I've seen it happen and I really don't think you'd want any of the people you know to get hurt, you know? It's just not worth having those pics. Something happens and you're going to feel just awful.

[Mike Cash]

Jesus H. Christ.....

Does anybody actually pay any attention to the CONTENT of what they reply to?

This is straight out of an old SNL Roseanne Roseannadanna skit.

You forgot to tell me off for using an optical trigger, by the way.

[Mike Cash]

Mag,

You couldn't have thrown me out. I am a member of the group. My function is that of staff camera guy. I am there shooting pictures at the specific desire and request of the entire group. I belong there.

I don't know how you managed to miss the MULTIPLE mentions of shooting rehearsal the night before. Perhaps you were so eager to start telling me off that your brain started working up your rant and was too busy to gather any facts from what it was you were replying to. I shoot the event. I shoot the rehearsal. I shoot the practice before rehearsal. I shoot backstage. I shoot the dressing room. I shoot their visits to old folks homes. Do you sort of clue in to the idea that I AM A MEMBER OF THE EFFING GROUP now? That they know me, how I shoot, what sort of output they get from it, and that they like and approve of it?

I don't know where you got the idea I was blasting a big pro flash in anyone's faces. The AF200T has to rank among the most humble CONSUMER flashes that Pentax ever put out. I use it on its weakest power setting: GN7. By way of comparison, that is only about 1/4 of what the pop-up on your DSLR puts out (GN13). Which is neither here nor there, really, as my use of flash is approved and accepted by the group I shoot for and is really none of your business.

[Arjay Bee]

And have you seen the speed at which the majority of Japanese dancers move - not likely to bust a tendon

[darrenleow]

The only time I would be confident enough not review any of my shots is if I was in a 100% closed environment where my entire lighting set-up was perfectly calibrated, and there was absolutely no chance of anything going wrong. Even then I'd probably find time to take an occasional quick peek at my screen to be sure.

I understand that you're upset and frustrated with needlessly losing precious shots because of someone else's disregard for rules and equipment error, especially after you've put in all the extra effort to make sure you had everything set up right.

May I suggest one thing. Perhaps you were using AF200T flash on low power for a kicker light or some fill. Since you're really involved in the group, could you replace your flash with a continuous stage light to give the same lighting effect? That way you won't have to use flash and risk a repeat of this exact problem.

But I totally understand that the real problem is having incompetent photographers ruin the shot for you, and that you have your off-camera flash technique worked out, so I agree that if the root problem can be fixed then that's what should be done first.

Anyway, that's life, and sh*t happens once in a while. I'm sorry you lost images, but at least now you (and all of us) know about something that could go wrong. If I ever have flashes set up and something's going wrong with the lighting, I'll be sure to look out for the nearest guy with a hotshoe flash.

[Northern Soul]

I'll be honest, I read some of the thread on my phone, and as I was in a grumpy mood anyway (stubbed my toe, heating hadn't warmed up, couldn't find a matching pair of socks - one of those mornings) I thought I'd respond in a grumpy way to the OPs post as I felt it was a bit grumpy too - it's annoying, but if I'm honest I thought it was a bit off to blame the other guy entirely when a simple check of a few shots would have shown up that there was a problem at the time.

I think the reason I and many others didn't get that you were using a wireless trigger was that you never mentioned it in your original post, but you did mention the optical trigger; I guess we've all just got that lodged in our minds.

Anyway, as I said originally (even though I was grumpy) - it's really annoying, but it's just one more thing you have to deal with by whatever means you can - but a radio trigger isn't going to help, it turns out

Next time, take a spare flash to fire and then take your shot when his is recycling! There you go - result

[Wheatfield]

Use your results from this year as a lever to ensure that they watch for the sort of equipment that caused you grief at the door next year. And yes, you might have to take an assistant along to check bags and confiscate any equipment that might cause problems for you.

[Northern Soul]

Use your results from this year as a lever to ensure that they watch for the sort of equipment that caused you grief at the door next year. And yes, you might have to take an assistant along to check bags and confiscate any equipment that might cause problems for you.

I can't wait for the "I went to see a dance production and they searched my bag and wouldn't let me take my camera in" thread.

Because I'm sure we'd all happily hand over our camera gear to a stranger.

[Mike Cash]

I mentioned I was using a radio trigger in the third sentence of the first post. I really don't know how much more clear I could have been that I was using a radio trigger, or about any of the other things that so many have so often overlooked, ignored, or misunderstood in this thread.

This has turned into perhaps the most farcical thread I have ever participated in anywhere.

Yes, I get the "You should have been constantly chimping" thing. I have heard it. I appreciate it. I have responded to it. Several times. We're just going to have to settle for a difference of opinion on that point....which an examination of the subject line of the thread should reveal wasn't the point behind the thread anyway. I appreciate everyone's kind thoughts, sympathy, and offers of advice. We're so used to "I had this problem. What could I have done about it?" threads that perhaps we tend to treat them all like that. This wasn't one of those. I know what went wrong. It sucks that I was too late in spotting it and fixing it, but the cause of the problem and the remedy were known even before I had typed the first word in the thread.

I get that you're all so bright you would have immediately figured out the wonky light was caused by an unauthorized shooter with optical slave enabled on his flash. I use low-end gear from the 1980s that doesn't have that function and it never would have crossed my mind in a million years, had it not been for that shadow I spotted hours after the show was over. I get that you all would have been constantly checking your screens despite a thousand problem-free shots with the same setup last year, over 200 problem-free shots at rehearsal, and over 400 through the first half of the show. I don't believe you really would, but I believe you believe you really would, and since you weren't there it's sort of a moot point anyway. The internet being what it is, though, we'll probably have at least a dozen more people telling me I should have been continuously chimping and another half dozen telling me what an idiot I was for using optical triggers.

[dgaies]

This has turned into perhaps the most farcical thread I have ever participated in anywhere.

Now that's not fair. That facebook thread we participated in several months was far more farcical than this thread

Sorry, I'm certainly not trying to make light of your situation as it is very unfortunate that someone else's violation of the explicit rules was the direct cause of you problems during your shoot.

[rparmar]

I don't hang around much any more and came across this thread accidentally, so sorry for the late comment.

First, Mike I have always enjoyed your dancer shots, especially as I have done dance recitals myself and understand the challenges. Your work is excellent and a model for others!

I have also been in the position of fighting my way through a gang of parents with p'n's and DSLR cameras when I was the designated photographer. Banning cameras is a solution that doesn't always work. And even if there is a ban against flash, people will use it anyway. Many people simply don't know how to turn off the flash on their cameras. (If you ask me, there should be a ban on camera beeping as well.)

I don't use flash in my work, since I find it too distracting for both performers and audience. The few people who know me and ask me to take shots understand and respect the decision. They know there are some shots I won't get. (But isn't that what rehearsal and staged shots are for?)

I must say I am surprised you have never previously come across the flash problem. I don't shoot that much and live in a place that is hardly metropolitan, yet I have remotely triggered someone else's flash pot on more than one occasion. I must say that I recognised the issue within about five minutes and managed to talk to the other photographer. But that wasn't at a recital and I had more freedom to do that, so maybe I was lucky.

I can only say that this was a learning experience. Next time you will spot the issue very quickly (though maybe not immediately, since it can be subtle). Or maybe simply work without flash and save yourself the bother. Then you can ask the organisers to ban flash photography and put yourself one rung up on those photogs who can't work without it!

[MRRiley]

I'm probably going to tick some people off for being honest here, but as someone who's been on the stage performing and been in the audience trying to get a few great pics for the scrapbook I'm not a huge fan of flash use in performing venues. It is distracting and potentially dangerous to dancers who may not be able to spot correctly if a flash suddenly goes off at the wrong time. When you're in the middle of a turn or some other complicated movement having a sudden bright light in your face can cause you to trip and maybe injure yourself.

I like having pics of such things, but I would not use a flash out of respect for the performers and their safety. Pro equipment isn't a problem but the use of flash for me would be and if I was doing security there I would have walked you both out unless you had agreed to put the flashes away. Sorry, but I would have. Situations like this are exactly why we have certain grades of film and high iso on digital cameras. I'm all for people getting as good a set of pics as they can and I'm sorry for the loss of the pics above, but IMHO neither of you should even be going there at all, using a pro level flash, particularly for that type of performance. You're potentially putting your subjects at risk, seriously.

I'm sure they love the pics, but how you go about getting them isn't the greatest thing for their safety during the performance. Next time? Since you know them I'd ask if you could attend the dress rehearsal as well. There usually is at least one, sometimes more than one. You can see them in their costumes going full out, but you'll also have time to figure out the tricky lighting situation sans pressure and you can then take pics with the right settings sans flash during the performance without having to worry about getting it right in one shot.

But using a pro flash in a performance like that, a rather big no-no. I've actually seen someone fall because they were too close to the front of the stage when a bright flash went off. This was a musical with a lot of ballet in it. The guy came out of a turn, spotted incorrectly because of the sudden bright light, came down very wrong, and almost wrecked his Achilles tendon because of some guy with a pro set up who was there to get pics for a brochure. He ended up in the ER and it cost him a lot in time, therapy, and unfortunately the role he'd been preparing for for months. They did ban flash use in that venue after that and while some of the people who went there were likely annoyed it was a much better thing for the performers.

I don't mean to rag you, not really, but just a strong caution because I've seen it happen and I really don't think you'd want any of the people you know to get hurt, you know? It's just not worth having those pics. Something happens and you're going to feel just awful.

Mag,

You couldn't have thrown me out. I am a member of the group. My function is that of staff camera guy. I am there shooting pictures at the specific desire and request of the entire group. I belong there.

I don't know how you managed to miss the MULTIPLE mentions of shooting rehearsal the night before. Perhaps you were so eager to start telling me off that your brain started working up your rant and was too busy to gather any facts from what it was you were replying to. I shoot the event. I shoot the rehearsal. I shoot the practice before rehearsal. I shoot backstage. I shoot the dressing room. I shoot their visits to old folks homes. Do you sort of clue in to the idea that I AM A MEMBER OF THE EFFING GROUP now? That they know me, how I shoot, what sort of output they get from it, and that they like and approve of it?

I don't know where you got the idea I was blasting a big pro flash in anyone's faces. The AF200T has to rank among the most humble CONSUMER flashes that Pentax ever put out. I use it on its weakest power setting: GN7. By way of comparison, that is only about 1/4 of what the pop-up on your DSLR puts out (GN13). Which is neither here nor there, really, as my use of flash is approved and accepted by the group I shoot for and is really none of your business.

Mag,

What Mike said!

I certainly understand his frustration with the comments in this thread. No one seems to be reading what he wrote in the opening post. If they were we wouldn't have posts suggesting radio triggers or him using flash without permission. HE WAS THE OFFICIAL PHOTOGRAPHER! He was sanctioned by the dance troupe, who knows how he works and expects him to use his flash. He used a central statically mounted flash connected to a radio trigger to allow him to move around without having to recalibrate his lighting every shot. He didn't chimp on a regular basis because his equipment was working properly and he had no reason to think it would stop working after every 2 or 3 shots.

Mike

[johnmflores]

This has turned into perhaps the most farcical thread I have ever participated in anywhere.

Mike, just wait until someone bumps into this thread a year from now and types, "The OP should have used radio triggers." I think it's time to walk away from this one. You've told your story repeatedly yet some still aren't getting the point...

that some venues may ban pro gear because it may interfere with the pro gear of the working pros there to get a job done, not just to play around.

It's an interesting angle and not one that I've thought of before. I always thought it was an IP/licensing issue.




Oh well, gotta go....now where are my optical triggers at???

[eddie1960]

Mike, just wait until someone bumps into this thread a year from now and types, "The OP should have used radio triggers." I think it's time to walk away from this one. You've told your story repeatedly yet some still aren't getting the point...

that some venues may ban pro gear because it may interfere with the pro gear of the working pros there to get a job done, not just to play around.

It's an interesting angle and not one that I've thought of before. I always thought it was an IP/licensing issue.

Mike I'm sorry to hear this. some people have zero consideration for others (and no pro would have used optical in that setting, it was obviously just a self important twit who didn't know how to use his gear)
I shoot a lot of events with a media pass. we are generally barred from flash use at all (and frequently are given 3 songs in the pit in front of the stage then not allowed to shoot after that)

I think this kind of rule for others shooting at your event needs to be implemented for next year Mike. Your use of flash as the official tog makes sense (and sounds unobtrusive as hell anyway given the flash setup used)

Ushers should be watching for it (hell he had to set up his external flash) and step in and tell him it's not allowed. If he causes a problem toss him from the venue.

Aside from all the other reason there is a couple of very good reasons not to allow flash at events of this sort
1. Flash interferes with the look of the performance for the audience who paid to see it (and wastes the lighting directors hard work)
2. Flash can interfere with the performance itself by distracting the performers. Particularly big pro flashes. but 50 or so P/S flashes going off non stop are just as bad if not worse (like a swarm of mosquito's)

I've had my media revoked by the artist at the last minute as well because they wanted to stop video getting out on new songs that hadn't been released yet. Road manager apologized after the fact and had i got my media through the artist rather than the promoter it would have been fine. They had actually banned all cameras and i saw people get escorted out with their p/s for shooting video/pictures despite the big sign they put at the door

Hopefully it gets settled for next year

[Northern Soul]

Oh well, gotta go....now where are my optical triggers at???

I keep my optical trigger attached to my radio trigger and attached to the flash, so I can fire the flash remotely even if it's not in sight. Makes it much easier to find.