[Todd Adamson]

Of late there has been a really nasty tone to the forum (driven in part by the Us price increase) that wasn't as present in the past.
If you disagree with some people right now they are hyper aggressive in their response (I've been called a few names but don't really give a Sh*t )

As for the original I'm here for the photography first, Let gearheadedness overtake me occasionally, and Try not to Whine (but of course I do occasionally - lately about excessive whining )

the thing i liked over on cameraenthusiast was the fact that the brand war whining mostly has been avoided so far. (I'm sure though if the forum gets as populous as this it will rear it's ugly head)

I think Todd was just pointing out we could tone down a few things here to the benefit of the forum (certainly a few good people have left lately due to attacks on their choices and I think it's been a loss for the forum)

Thanks, Eddie, that helps confirm what I've suspected: that it's a real change in tone/content as opposed to me just being slow to "get it." I'm definitely not trying to say things have to be a given way, or to prescribe behavior or opinions, but you're absolutley right. I'm trying to say backing off on some of these things would benefit the forum. It would also benefit the individuals. While a community obviously pays a price for negativity of its members, a bigger more personal toll is paid by the perpetrators of said negativity.

To be clear (because I've seen threads at FM where people do this): I'm NOT lodging any sort of general complaint about PF, or saying anything like "OMG guys, this place is going down the drain and I'm probably going to leave if it doesn't turn around fast!" I'm not doing that at all, and I hope no one interprets it that way. I'm seriously only trying to be helpful, by injecting a little perspective. I was initially very impresed with PF when I joined, and that hasn't changed at all. There are a lot of friendly, helpful people, and ton of knowledgable, quality shooters here. It's well-organized, and well-maintained. I left FM because I became too invested in the culture before realizing how bad certain aspects of it were for me. I'm unlikely to repeat that mistake on another forum, ever. If I stop posting here it will be because I am busy, and it will be temporary. I guess I'd also quit posting if I stopped shooting Pentax, or if all the quality people here left, or if Adam just left the place alone and let it degenerate, etc....but I don't see any of those things as likely scenarios. Sorry for that additional digression, I just wanted to make sure I was clear about that!

Good to hear you are at CE. I've been meaning to check it out, but when I looked last I didn't see a lot of activity, so I didn't sign up. I know, that's stupid, and if I think it might be good with a certain critical mass, I should just jump on board and become part of that critical mass, eh? I'll do that soon.....remind me if I don't!

[Rondec]

I do think Pentaxians are a lot more sensitive to criticism of the quality of their equipment. Many people seem to assume that L lenses and upper end Nikon lenses are on a completely different level than what Pentax offers. They are bigger companies and they have more stability with a lot bigger user base. Up till recently, Pentax has been the unwanted, red-headed step child of Hoya, gutted for what it was worth with only remnants left of its "glory days."

For a long time, there were periodic troll threads that would pop up "Will Pentax last?" "My camera salesman says Pentax is doomed." There is even a current thread going "Is Ricoh going to kill Pentax?" Certainly if Pentax went away, I would be disappointed. I have shot with their gear for fifteen years and own a lot of nice lenses, but I guess I would/could get over it in the end. But I don't want to. And when folks from the bigger Canon/Nikon camps say "Oh, Pentax will go away soon," I fear in my heart that they might be right...

[Todd Adamson]

Maybe I should resurrect some of those old 'soft' disputes.

Hell yeah. I could get on board with a few of thse discussions. When you truly love photography, and care about making your results the best they can be given the gear that you have access to, the whole argument about pricing becomes so trivial.

[Todd Adamson]

And when folks from the bigger Canon/Nikon camps say "Oh, Pentax will go away soon," I fear in my heart that they might be right...

That would be a disappointment for sure. But I'm willing to let Ricoh do what they will and see how it pans out. I'm certainly not going to claim I know what's best for long-term corporate strategy, as so many others seem to be happy to do.

And if Pentax does go away, I'm a photographer who is defined by my personal style, preferences, and approach to the craft. Not defined by my gear. I would of course argue that any photographer who is defined by their gear is not really a photographer first and foremost.

There's also nothing wrong with shooting gear that's no longer manufactured or supported. It comes with some challenges, but can be well worth it. I just bought a Contax RX, and I am having a ton of fun with it...really fulfilling. If Ricoh kills Pentax, they won't be coming to my house and confiscating my lenses now, will they?

[eddie1960]

Hell yeah. I could get on board with a few of thse discussions. When you truly love photography, and care about making your results the best they can be given the gear that you have access to, the whole argument about pricing becomes so trivial.

Thing is many people get caught up in the gear and how you absolutely have to have to acheive something . Really??? how was it done before X was made then. Personally I'm not a big Pixel peeper and am a big fan of using older gear because it has a look i don't get from new gear. Certainly their are lenses i would like that aren't in the current budget just like i would like a FF camera for some things (though reality is when it is released I will have to wait until I can swing the cost)
until then I have a whack of gear i can use (and don't use often enough in some cases like my RF's and Medium format).

I agree with you and Rico. Many of those soft issues are what kept me on the forum at the beginning. It's what made this a great place to learn. My observation is that the sale to Ricoh seems to have generated more of the other threads (when reality is they had more validity under Hoya - Ricoh having bought the brand to make it a going concern)

and yep sonograms are photography

[eddie1960]

I do think Pentaxians are a lot more sensitive to criticism of the quality of their equipment. Many people seem to assume that L lenses and upper end Nikon lenses are on a completely different level than what Pentax offers. They are bigger companies and they have more stability with a lot bigger user base. Up till recently, Pentax has been the unwanted, red-headed step child of Hoya, gutted for what it was worth with only remnants left of its "glory days."

For a long time, there were periodic troll threads that would pop up "Will Pentax last?" "My camera salesman says Pentax is doomed." There is even a current thread going "Is Ricoh going to kill Pentax?" Certainly if Pentax went away, I would be disappointed. I have shot with their gear for fifteen years and own a lot of nice lenses, but I guess I would/could get over it in the end. But I don't want to. And when folks from the bigger Canon/Nikon camps say "Oh, Pentax will go away soon," I fear in my heart that they might be right...

Many of the threads like that are pure trolldom, not all. the thing is they seem to go on and on. Simple answer is really the only answer. Ricoh bought the brand to make it a going concern. Could the brand / Kmount die. Sure, so could Sony Oly canon et al under the right circumstances. Until then enjoy the kit and support the brand. It's after all about the photography not the gear, If Pentax ever does die there will be alternatives to pick upthe slack, or you could just continue using what you own until it dies and can no longer be resurrected

[eddie1960]

That would be a disappointment for sure. But I'm willing to let Ricoh do what they will and see how it pans out. I'm certainly not going to claim I know what's best for long-term corporate strategy, as so many others seem to be happy to do.

And if Pentax does go away, I'm a photographer who is defined by my personal style, preferences, and approach to the craft. Not defined by my gear. I would of course argue that any photographer who is defined by their gear is not really a photographer first and foremost.

There's also nothing wrong with shooting gear that's no longer manufactured or supported. It comes with some challenges, but can be well worth it. I just bought a Contax RX, and I am having a ton of fun with it...really fulfilling. If Ricoh kills Pentax, they won't be coming to my house and confiscating my lenses now, will they?

OOH an RX I always wanted one of those (Even more I wanted the 645 :drool: )
they make some fine lenses

(the gearhead in me rearing it's ugly head )

[Todd Adamson]

OOH an RX I always wanted one of those (Even more I wanted the 645 :drool: )
they make some fine lenses

(the gearhead in me rearing it's ugly head )

Have a look at no-exif.com. I've been busy lately.

Being a gearhead, I guess. :P But I'm shooting a lot, too. I'm with you on the look we can get with old gear. If I wasn't a working professional, I would buy an X100, or a Nikon 1, or something like that, and sell all of my other digital gear. When I shoot for ME these days, it's almost invariably film.

[eddie1960]

Have a look at no-exif.com. I've been busy lately.

Being a gearhead, I guess. :P But I'm shooting a lot, too. I'm with you on the look we can get with old gear. If I wasn't a working professional, I would buy an X100, or a Nikon 1, or something like that, and sell all of my other digital gear. When I shoot for ME these days, it's almost invariably film.

You have been busy, it will take me a while to work my way through all those posts. Ive Seriously considered selling off a lot of gear and simplifying (the Xpro system is appealing but more than I want to spend) I may actually sell off a big chunk of gear and just go with 1 film and 1 Digital body and the FA LTD trio plus a wide lens TBD. Even the paid work I do could likely be covered with the right 4 - 5 lenses
But it's a lot of fun finding a lens for $15 like my M 28 3.5 that just performs so well.

[kenafein]

Don't worry, I still take lots of photos, and I think I am even getting better at it too, cheers.

[pinholecam]

But I do think it's fair to say that if you are doing more whining than you are shooting, you've crossed well over it. If your concerns about the currently available gear, or its pricing, or the long-term corporate strategy of Pentax/Ricoh are cutting into your enjoyment of photography, you really need to reassess things. If you’re bitching more and creating less, there's no one to blame but yourself.

To me the underlined line sums it all.


Frank who is on this forum too and who is the moderator on the local forum always has this great advice :
"There is no perfect camera. If someone keeps thinking why a camera cannot do this or does not have this or that, he will just be unhappy and go mad."
"Just go out and take more pictures"

I started off in the lens section of this forum. Almost never ever ventured to the other sub-sections.
Great ppl there. Fantastic experience and advise. (still so).
Most opinions backed up with nice photos too.
When I ventured out as my LBA slowed down, I was shocked with the 'camera experts', 'doomsday prophets' 'format messiahs' and generally unsatisfied folks lurking in the other sections.
So many ready to jump ship at the next lens/camera release or Pentax move that is not aligned to what they have in mind. (I do hope Canikony aligns with their thoughts at every turn, else they jump again to who knows where else)


Thumbs up for this post Todd.

[RioRico]

I started off in the lens section of this forum. Almost never ever ventured to the other sub-sections.
Great ppl there. Fantastic experience and advise. (still so).
Most opinions backed up with nice photos too.
When I ventured out as my LBA slowed down, I was shocked with the 'camera experts', 'doomsday prophets' 'format messiahs' and generally unsatisfied folks lurking in the other sections.

Gotta stay away from the NEWS+RUMORS+B.S. section, eh? It's almost as fantastic as P&R. Yeah, stick with the technical fora. Much more reality-based.

[Medium FormatPro]

Of late there has been a really nasty tone to the forum (driven in part by the Us price increase)

Agreed, but I've also noticed it about equipment. But then again, very people seem to realize that perhaps it was a bit more difficult using the equipment of the 80's and earlier.

My perspective on camera gear/equipment... IF one can make due with a two hundred dollar point and shoot, then great. To me photography is all about creativity anyway - regardless of the gear.

[jsherman999]

.

Great post, Todd. I've seen these same sentiments expressed since I began on photography forums, but usually not so well.

There are many ways to enjoy photography, and no-one's way is best for everyone. Learning about the gear, enjoying the gear, anticipating new gear - all part of the hobby. For some folks, the 'gear' is 10% of the fun - for others, it's 80%. Everyone's individual ratio is equally valid.

I read sites like dpreview to get my gear/tech fix, and sites like The Online Photographer to get my art-of-photography fix. Sites like his and Luminous Landscape and FM have a great mix of both. For me, the combination of the two aspects of this craft - art and tech - draw me so strongly to it. If it had a singular aspect, it wouldn't have the same level of appeal. My own learn-grow-evolve has happened in both of these areas, and I'm very glad for it.

Regarding the 'what's best for Pentax know-it-alls' - I will admit to playing in that park as well... and I'm sorry to say I won't be apologizing for it. It's not because I know what's best for Pentax, it's because I recognize a dichotomy within Pentax - certain accomplishments and gear that are almost unparalleled in some attribute (like the 77ltd you recognized,) juxtaposed against a waning market share, a history of too-safe decisions. I think Pentax has the opportunity to take other paths, to build on her strengths better. Many others who are not simply whiners (or trolls) feel the same way. Unfortunately wishing and speculating gets mixed in with trolling and whining, and many folks get painted with the same brush.

The negativity in the past year has increased, due to several well-known factors that we don't need to get into again. Hopefully the K-5 replacement will give us something exciting gear-related to talk about, to satisfy the gear needs herein. Our art needs are always our own to satisfy. And within photography, gear and art are not a dichotomy.


.

[keyofnight]

.
The negativity in the past year has increased, due to several well-known factors that we don't need to get into again. Hopefully the K-5 replacement will give us something exciting gear-related to talk about, to satisfy the gear needs herein. Our art needs are always our own to satisfy. And within photography, gear and art are not a dichotomy.

I agree. Gear and art are not divorced from one another—they are bound together.