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08-03-2012, 08:18 AM   #1
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Have FF cameras already reached their high iso limit?

I see no difference in general between D4 and D3s, they are about the same. The same story with 1Dx, it's just as good as previous two, not worse, not better.
So what, no progress with current methods (CMOS or whatever, bayer filter, etc)?

If it is, thoughts about "APS-C is getting closer to FF" are wrong and we are about to reach the limit with K-5.

08-03-2012, 08:22 AM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
I see no difference in general between D4 and D3s, they are about the same. The same story with 1Dx, it's just as good as previous two, not worse, not better.
So what, no progress with current methods (CMOS or whatever, bayer filter, etc)?

If it is, thoughts about "APS-C is getting closer to FF" are wrong and we are about to reach the limit with K-5.
Meh, possibly, these things seem to go in bursts a big leap in the tech and several years before the next really big leap)

thing is do we need better high ISO? K5 and the nikon FF really push the limits way beyond what we could do with film for instance
08-03-2012, 08:38 AM   #3
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It might be the next "big thing" in high-ISO noise management is not sensor technology at all, but composite RAW files. Take 2 or more successive images, and blend them into a single shot. Gov't spy satellites have been doing this for years, and Sony has a feature that does this for jpeg. The trick will be to get a camera to output a decent, editable RAW-ish file.
08-03-2012, 08:40 AM   #4
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There will be a major change sometime, probably sooner rather than later. Technology goes by leaps followed by incremental "improvements" until the next leap. I'm addicted to photo magazines, so Pop Photos latest and greatest Nikon / Canon FF "shootout" comes to mind.

When that next leap comes around, all the CMOS sensors will be "old hat" and my CCD will be ancient history. The funny thing is, I just shot a 50th wedding anniversary with my old K10, and the clients are very happy with the results. I have owned exactly 5 (five) SLR bodies: AP first run (1/50 etc.), KX, (stupidly sold it), SF-1, MZ-S and K10D. I'm not one to trade in my vehicle because the new one has more horsepower or better fuel mileage or ... and I am the same way with my other gear, photographic, computer, whatever.

08-03-2012, 08:55 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
It might be the next "big thing" in high-ISO noise management is not sensor technology at all, but composite RAW files. Take 2 or more successive images, and blend them into a single shot. Gov't spy satellites have been doing this for years, and Sony has a feature that does this for jpeg. The trick will be to get a camera to output a decent, editable RAW-ish file.
You can already do that with software after the fact -- PhotoAcute, for instance. (Will allows RAW in and RAW out.) And there are several free stacking programs (mainly designed for astronomy) that will take dozens or hundreds of frames (usually from video) of planets or galaxies and blend them to make a much higher quality image.
08-03-2012, 09:47 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
You can already do that with software after the fact -- PhotoAcute, for instance. (Will allows RAW in and RAW out.) And there are several free stacking programs (mainly designed for astronomy) that will take dozens or hundreds of frames (usually from video) of planets or galaxies and blend them to make a much higher quality image.
Yeah, Photomatix does it, too. I'm talking about a totally in-camera solution, though. I"m sure it's only a matter of time.
08-03-2012, 09:59 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
It might be the next "big thing" in high-ISO noise management is not sensor technology at all, but composite RAW files. Take 2 or more successive images, and blend them into a single shot. Gov't spy satellites have been doing this for years, and Sony has a feature that does this for jpeg. The trick will be to get a camera to output a decent, editable RAW-ish file.
Not that special for photography, what would the iso noise difference be between blended 2 blended shots off 1 second ISO3200 and a single 2 second ISO1600 photo?

Next big advancement are pixels that count rather then fill.
So rather that a pixels has a charge from level 0 up to 265 it can only hold a very small charge but it can reset itself and count those resets.
So a charge of 200 with normal pixels could equal 200 counts for the new pixels.
Best thing is it can count from 0 up to infinity(?), just think about the dynamic range

08-03-2012, 10:04 AM   #8
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Have you seen the lack of noise on the new Canon 5D MKIII, it is unbelievable compared to evry other test I have seen.
08-03-2012, 10:28 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Franky2step Quote
Have you seen the lack of noise on the new Canon 5D MKIII, it is unbelievable compared to evry other test I have seen.
have you seen the D800 E? my cousin has one and I've seen a couple of astonishingly good 6 foot prints (yep 6 foot, cost him a grand apiece to print, sold em though for 4 times that )
08-03-2012, 10:45 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Not that special for photography, what would the iso noise difference be between blended 2 blended shots off 1 second ISO3200 and a single 2 second ISO1600 photo?
More than you think, especially if you can get 3+ shots.
08-03-2012, 11:06 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
It might be the next "big thing" in high-ISO noise management is not sensor technology at all, but composite RAW files. Take 2 or more successive images, and blend them into a single shot. Gov't spy satellites have been doing this for years

Not quite.

A majority of the government spy sats use incredibly large sensors; either one very large sensor; or many that are electronically stiched together. Think of it as having a hubble aimed back towards Earth. Also almost all governent sats use fixed lens' on a type of rotating barrel; much like really old news (film) cameras once did.
08-03-2012, 11:08 AM   #12
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Photo stacking provides remarkable improvements in noise reduction and dynamic range. I'm still learning how to do it well for astrophotography, architecture, and landscapes. Stacking is less usable for wildlife and sports due to motion.

Regardless, I expect to see further advancements in low light performance on future sensors. There might be a temporary plateau - a new sensor might improve pixel count without reducing noise, but then a later sensor will reduce noise.
08-03-2012, 11:14 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Next big advancement are pixels that count rather then fill.
So rather that a pixels has a charge from level 0 up to 265 it can only hold a very small charge but it can reset itself and count those resets.
So a charge of 200 with normal pixels could equal 200 counts for the new pixels.
Best thing is it can count from 0 up to infinity(?), just think about the dynamic range
Yeah, if we can get rid of clipping the highlights and expose like it is negative film that would be a huge step.
08-03-2012, 11:22 AM   #14
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Tech that increases high ISO IQ can be applied to any sensor format.
08-03-2012, 11:27 AM - 2 Likes   #15
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I'm a little shocked Mr. Emacs doesn't know what the future of high ISO is going to be. He will certainly give you snide remarks or a good brow-beating over knowing what is the "superior" camera you should be using, what the future of the view finders is going to be, what lenses you should have used in your scene and more often delivered in a tone that his opinion is the authority and you're an idiot.

Last edited by tuco; 08-03-2012 at 12:05 PM.
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