[philbaum]

Yes, putting lots of effort into FF may or may not be necessary for Pentax but it certainly isn't capitalizing on the one asset they really do have, an excellent range on APS-C, better than anyone else's. I've been fascinated by this article which I mentioned in another post yesterday and in particular by this quote from it:
Quote:

Pentax has a small but very loyal group of users who love their lenses. Pentax hasn’t been growing SLR market share for some time now. Perhaps Pentax is going to migrate their entire system to a mirrorless format. The top end cameras would have built in viewfinders and high-end phase detection AF on their sensors. They would only be slightly smaller than current SLRs but would cost significantly less to produce. Intro level cameras would be smaller, have no viewfinder, and throw in a small built-in flash.

The entire lineup, in other words, would be mirrorless with no SLRs left. Depending on their preferences they could price the cameras lower than competitors SLRs and draw users into that huge lens lineup. Or they could price them similar to competitors SLRs and be more profitable.

Roger Cicala is an industry professional and insider, I believe, and he surely knows 100 times more about these things than most of us do. And much as it may be fun just to speculate, I do like this idea. It is bold and innovative (which is what got Pentax started, as I understand it), it puts Pentax instantly in front of instead of behind the big three companies who will likely be forced to go this route over the next decade anyway, it much reduces one of the weakness of APS-C DSLRs compared to m4/3 (size), it gives them a platform they can really sell in a market growing more and more interested in higher-end MILCs, it means they can continue with K-mount.....

Pentax's connundrum is that if they continue with the K-mount, it almost implies that they do a FF at some time. The K-mount was designed for FF film, afterall. If they choose to go mirrorless and compete with the likes of Sony, Fuji, and Canon (M mount), they can only compete if they design a new mount smaller than the K for use with an APS sensor. If they choose to compete with a larger mirrorless camera and maintain the K mount, then the model would look something like the K-01, which has its fans, but met with a lot of disinterest, even amoung the Pentax faithful.

Proposal:
Pentax should design a new mount for a small mirrorless camera that would be able to compactly feed an APS or FF sensor, but without the registration distance needed to allow for mirror operation, call it the KMirrorless mount. A Pentax KMirrorless to K adapter would be made available so that the smaller mirrorless camera could use smaller lenses designed just for it (as in Sony's e-lenses) or could also use K lenses in AF mode via the adapter. (such as Sony's Alpha to e-lens adapter)

This new KMirrorless mount would allow Pentax to compete directly against Sony and Fuji, while at the same time allowing the Pentax base to use their older AF and Manual lenses on the new smaller mount. They would of course continue the K5 series and FF mount as they wished.

Verdict:
I was discouraged when i read during the Photokina that Pentax reps considered K01 to be a one-off model that won't be repeated. Personally, i've decided to supplement my K5 with a Sony Nex camera. Pentax seems to have feet stuck in concrete and is unable to see a way forward. I'm not waiting for them anymore.

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Last edited by philbaum; 10-11-2012 at 03:12 PM.

[normhead]

two letters: FF

WHere do APS-c DSLRs have left to go?

Anywhere you can take pictures.

Please,
where does FF have left to go?
Where does MF have left to go?
Where does 5x7 film have left to go?

What kind of question is that anyway?

Where does 4/3 have left to go for that matter.
If APS-c goes FF then it's not APS-c anymore and you've lost the advantages APS-c brings you.

When you get your FF , don't toss your APS-c. You may discover you want both.

Verdict:
I was discouraged when i read during the Photokina that Pentax reps considered K01 to be a one-off model that won't be repeated. Personally, i've decided to supplement my K5 with a Sony Nex camera. Pentax seems to have feet stuck in concrete and is unable to see a way forward. I'm not waiting for them anymore.

Did the other 12 jurors go along with that or was it a dissenting opinion?

[Pål Jensen]

Pentax is without question the best option for APS-C DSLRs. the question remains though, how important will this market continue to be with mirrorless becoming more advanced and FF becoming smaller and more affordable everyday..


...where do APS-C DSLRs have left to go?

This is getting boring. Entry level DSLR's (and DSLR's in general) continue to increase in sales in spite of mirrorless cheap or expensive. Just see the shipment data and Canons latest reports. FF has not getting any cheaper the last three years and if they do eventually, APS will be correspondingly cheaper as well.
The future for smaller sensors (and bigger ones too for that matter) is extremely bright....

[DeadJohn]

Technology keeps improving. Parts get smaller. Sensors get better. If 4/3 improvements will squeeze out APS-C, then APS-C improvements will squeeze out FF, and FF will do likewise to MF.

An FF sensor with IBIS is likely to eventually fit inside a K-01 size body. A future Pentax mirrorless that works as Phil mentions would be great, but please please please include a good EVF.

Pentax should design a new mount for a small mirrorless camera that would be able to compactly feed an APS or FF sensor, but without the registration distance needed to allow for mirror operation, call it the KMirrorless mount. A Pentax KMirrorless to K adapter would be made available so that the smaller mirrorless camera could use smaller lenses designed just for it (as in Sony's e-lenses) or could also use K lenses in AF mode via the adapter. (such as Sony's Alpha to e-lens adapter)

[top-quark]

One of the things that attracted me to the Pentax system was the sensible range of glass available. Certain focal lengths (or ranges on zooms) were popular in the film era because they just plain worked. Rather than offer a range of glass that was no longer quite suitable, Pentax scaled them down:

Fast standard zoom: 24 - 70 F2.8 -> 16 - 50 F2.8
Fast telephoto zoom: 70 - 200 F2.8 -> 50 - 135 F2.8
Sports zoom: 100 - 400 F4 - 5.6 -> 60 - 250 F4
Fast portrait: 85 F1.4 -> 55 F1.4

And so on.

Good to see recognition of this laudable strategy. DP Review make a similar point:

Pentax offers a wide range of lenses including probably the most complete selection of pancakes and primes designed specifically for APS-C bodies

[RonHendriks1966]

Well good to see that the outside world does recognice it.

[illdefined]

where does FF have left to go?

it can go cheaper, smaller and better built at the $2000 price level. (all things we'd want Pentax to do if it went FF).

Where does MF have left to go?

MF full-frame (645D is a crop), cheaper, smaller, more new lenses, and higher resolution now that FF has caught up it to in MP.

Where does 5x7 film have left to go?

the museum. on the shelf behind glass, and in the hands of dedicated collectors and artists

Where does 4/3 have left to go for that matter.

better EVFs, better continuous AF, more specialized lenses and adapters. m4/3 is just starting to hit its stride.

When you get your FF , don't toss your APS-c. You may discover you want both.

who said anything about tossing out APS-C? it's here to stay, just no longer necessarily with the added size/weight of a mirrorbox/OVF.

what else can Pentax do with it's APS-C DSLRs besides bring it's AF to the standards of its already established competitors? they can never be made smaller than a K-01, or tougher than a K-5, and APS-C DSLRs already sell for as low as $500. IQ can always be improved, same as all the digital formats, but as a platform, APS-C DSLRs have plateaued.

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Last edited by illdefined; 10-12-2012 at 08:51 AM.

[illdefined]

This is getting boring. Entry level DSLR's (and DSLR's in general) continue to increase in sales in spite of mirrorless cheap or expensive. Just see the shipment data and Canons latest reports. FF has not getting any cheaper the last three years and if they do eventually, APS will be correspondingly cheaper as well.
The future for smaller sensors (and bigger ones too for that matter) is extremely bright....

what's getting old is your obsolete, irrelevant data.

what do Canon's sales have to do with Pentax anyway? Canon's brand equity, marketing, product range, support and retail distribution are on a completely other realm of existence. Pentax doesn't even begin to figure.

fact 1: every major non-DSLR camera manufacturer (Sony, Olympus, Fuji, Panasonic, Samsung) has released advanced mirrorless cameras and lenses this year that directly target the APS-C DSLR demographic.

fact 2: the other two DSLR manufacturers left (titans Canon and Nikon) have just released significantly cheaper FF cameras (not sensors), that directly target the high-end/semi-pro APS-C DSLR demographic, starting with their own.

that's pretty much the entire industry. the market changed significantly this year, which your dated Canon sales reports do not yet reflect. just because you utterly refuse to accept this reality doesn't make it untrue. time stands still for no one. not even Canon.

[Blue]

Thom also achnowledged what I have been saying. The Honeywell lawsuite is what essentially took Minolta out of the ball game as a major player. While he doesn't mention it, the lawsuite also had an impact on Oly and Pentax. This happened at the time when Canon was switching to the EOS for the af bodies. Everyone thinks of Canon as the af mover and shacker but in fact it was Minolta that took it main stream.

[Pål Jensen]

what's getting old is your obsolete, irrelevant data.

what do Canon's sales have to do with Pentax anyway? Canon's brand equity, marketing, product range, support and retail distribution are on a completely other realm of existence. Pentax doesn't even begin to figure.

fact 1: every major non-DSLR camera manufacturer (Sony, Olympus, Fuji, Panasonic, Samsung) has released advanced mirrorless cameras and lenses this year that directly target the APS-C DSLR demographic.

fact 2: the other two DSLR manufacturers left (titans Canon and Nikon) have just released significantly cheaper FF cameras (not sensors), that directly target the high-end/semi-pro APS-C DSLR demographic, starting with their own.

that's pretty much the entire industry. the market changed significantly this year, which your dated Canon sales reports do not yet reflect. just because you utterly refuse to accept this reality doesn't make it untrue. time stands still for no one. not even Canon.

Your "facts" has nothing to do with reality. Canon is a market leader and along with Nikon have 80+ % of the DSLR market. For both majority of camera sales are entry level. Both record increase.
Mirrorless cameras are nothing new., There are no reason to assume a different user group today than last year. The DSLR's sales number, that are only a couple of months old, give no indication of decline; the oposite in fact.
FF cameras has not become cheaper and they are way too expensive to target APS. The "cheap" D600 cost where I live twice as much as the new K-5IIs (not to mention how much more it cost than a camera of similar built and feature). Cameras that cost double the amount of another one is not in the same brackett (never mind that the different formats). I then theres lens cost...

[illdefined]

Canon is a market leader and along with Nikon have 80+ % of the DSLR market. For both majority of camera sales are entry level. Both record increase.

again, what does this mean for Pentax? it can't possibly mean anything good. Pentax doesn't even have an entry-level DSLR right now.

Mirrorless cameras are nothing new., There are no reason to assume a different user group today than last year. The DSLR's sales number, that are only a couple of months old, give no indication of decline; the oposite in fact.

you must not be paying attention, mirrorless systems released in the past year are very different from the year before. fast, high-res built-in EVFs, 20 point jumps in DxOmark scores, weathersealed bodies and lenses, and a host of new fast, small primes and pro-quality zooms, and they're only getting better....these are no "P&S replacements" (the Q, Nikon-1 and Canon-M are).

The OM-D and Fuji X-Pro1 had barely been on the market by the time your Canon numbers were recorded, and neither the much anticipated GH3 nor cheaper X-E1 and NEX6 were on the market at all...

FF cameras has not become cheaper and they are way too expensive to target APS. The "cheap" D600 cost where I live twice as much as the new K-5IIs (not to mention how much more it cost than a camera of similar built and feature). Cameras that cost double the amount of another one is not in the same brackett (never mind that the different formats). I then theres lens cost...

surely you realize this is a global market...prices in your country alone do not dictate what happens in the rest of the world. how much did the 7D and D300 cost in your country when they were first introduced? this is the high-end APS-C market the 6D and D600 target, and the market Pentax used to undercut. it will continue to try, but really can't now with a sensor less than half the size in a similar sized body.

[seventysixersfan]

Just saw this posting By Thom Hogan about the K-3-- he's actually endorsing it!
Meanwhile, Meet the Pentax D400 | byThom | Thom Hogan

He writes:
"Nikon's long replacement cycle on the D400 is now to the point where a lot of the audience is slowly drifting elsewhere. The lack of top end DX lenses doesn't give anyone any confidence that Nikon actually understands the high-end DX user. So let me put it as plainly as I can: people want a top DX (or as in the case of the Pentax K-3, APS) system for a reason: everything scales. Size, weight, and price. Sure, the D800 is a great camera. Now stick the f/2.8 or f/4 zooms on it and add up the size, weight, and price. You've left a lot of folk out of the market for a top-end, serious camera. I know a lot of college sports shooters and other pros who are using DX for those reasons: size, weight, and price. They can't afford a full out FX system, nor do they want to travel with one given the airline carry-on hassle we get these days.

Put another way, Nikon either doesn't see a whole group of users, or has chosen to ignore them for a long while. That's not how you defend your position as one of the top two DSLR makers. "

[monochrome]

Uh, WOW! Thom Hogan. Embedded Lens Roadmap in his article. Huh.

[Rondec]

Nikon would rather get people to buy full frame -- even if it is a camera that they lose money on (D600?) than make a upper end APS-C camera. They have to cripple APS-C both with regard to camera features (the buffer on the D7100 is abysmal) and with regard to upper end lenses, because in the end there is more money to be made on full frame lenses.

[seventysixersfan]

Uh, WOW! Thom Hogan. Embedded Lens Roadmap in his article. Huh.

Plus he directs readers at the end to:

"Pre-order your Pentax K-3 from the following advertiser"

of course, he may have said that because B&H is the advertiser that is paying him money to say that. Still...