Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
02-16-2013, 04:59 AM - 2 Likes   #1
Veteran Member
RockvilleBob's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Lewes DE USA
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,780
Full Frame vs Better Cropped Camera?

My wish is for a Pentax camera that is a step up from the K-5 line with:
1. Better autofocus capabilities - faster / spot on
2. More quality lens options from Pentax and third party lens companies, especially at the long end.
3. Protect the K mount so I can use the lenses that I already own.


So the issue of FF vs cropped isn't important to me. If I were a professional photographer doing landscapes then FF would be important. I m not a professional, just a serious amateur photographer who feels that 16 Mega pixels is adequate (yes more would be nice if noise didn't degrade) but feels hemmed in by a limited lens selection versus Canon and Nikon (even from third parties and even from Sony mounts) and autofocus that limits my sports and wildlife photography. I also do a fair amount of HDR photography, both interior and landscape, just getting started in macro photography with a good macro 1:1 lens and bellows, and family event photography - for all of these I find my current Pentax K-5 more than adequate. It is when I try my hand at sports and wildlife photography that I feel hemmed in by Pentax autofocus and lens options.

So if I were a professional, making my living with my camera, I would probably own a Nikon or Canon FF with maximum pixels and a selection of high end glass so I could get that great grab from the thousands of shots I take weekly. My camera system would be very expensive and push the envelope.

As a cost conscious, serious amateur I am pleased and very happy with my K-5. Just give me a better autofocus, invest in introducing more high quality lenses and work with third party lens companies to get their high end glass available for Pentax users. As sensor technology continues to improve all cameras, FF and cropped, will take advantage of these changes. I see sensor technology as a rising tide that raises all boats.

I would be interested in how others feel about this.

02-16-2013, 05:09 AM   #2
Senior Member




Join Date: May 2011
Location: Herefordshire, UK
Posts: 197
I don't think I can add to that - I agree.
02-16-2013, 05:11 AM   #3
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2011
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 4,308
I use manual focus a lot, even for sports, so better autofocus,
as welcome as it would be, is not a major priority for me personally.

At the moment, I see the major problem with APS-C being at the wide angle end
(over 90 degrees diagonal angle of view, so < 15mm focal length on APS-C).

A full frame sensor would offer the best solution to that problem,
allowing optimal use of the K-mount for wide angle photography.

Shorter registration distances on APS-C don't help with wide lenses,
because they make the edge rays angle too much to the sensels.
02-16-2013, 05:19 AM   #4
Senior Member
older not wiser's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: East Yorkshire
Posts: 120
In a quandary

I agree with most of your comments about what sort of camera and lenses that a enthusiast amateur may need. But I am uncertain of the future of the cropped sensor. If full frame sensors come down in price as they seem to be doing there may not be a market for the cropped sensor. In my experience most amateurs are very influenced by the equipment available to professionals.
At the moment I am thinking of replacing my K10, but I don't know if I should go for the excellent K5ii or wait for the rumoured up and coming Pentax full frame. Interesting times are ahead for the enthusiasts SLR.

02-16-2013, 05:39 AM - 1 Like   #5
Inactive Account




Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Planet Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy, Universe
Posts: 1,119
Well, Canon recently announced (CP+ 2013: Interview with Canon's Masaya Maeda: Digital Photography Review) that they will be bringing out an EOS 70D, so they apparently still think there is a place for it, even though they also mentioned that the future of semi-pro DSLRs is probably fullframe. Besides, the so-called "budget" fullframe DSLRs that were recently released are still priced way higher than semi-pro crop bodies. So if you want a new camera now and can't afford a fullframe model (or don't want to spend that much money on a camera), APS-C still is the way to go.

Besides, even if two or three years from now, APS-C gets replaced by fullframe in the semi-pro category, your camera will still work. And if you're still happy with APS-C at that time, you may be able to buy used (or even new) APS-C lenses at reduced prices, because other people will go to fullframe. I mean, in the end it's not about where "the market" is going, but about what you want: does your gear serve the purpose? There may be a fullframe "hype" in a few years time. Doesn't mean you have to participate in it. Relax and enjoy shooting.
02-16-2013, 06:00 AM   #6
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,493
I think I already have the quality cropped cameras from Pentax so not sure what would be new, better AF is definitely welcome but not something which excite me (likely that it wont touch Canikon soon in AF dept), more megapixel, hmm okay, but I am fine with 16 & 12MP too.

So, would like to see FF now than the better aps-c
02-16-2013, 07:03 AM - 1 Like   #7
Veteran Member




Join Date: Sep 2007
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 969
i'm afraid you're confusing matters. full frame (35mm) and pro's have nothing to do with eachother really. aps-c is good enough for most pro tasks, actually it's probably better for most of their tasks. pro's will get what they need to get the job done, as long as they can justify the price (much harder to when it's a business, than when it's a hobby ), and that's about it. also, mainly because of this, nobody would bother developing cameras these days for pro's, the 35mm digital cameras you see are for the enthusiasts who have the cash. in fact, i believe you're mistaken at another level too: it's not about what you need, as an amateur: do you honestly believe you need the gear you have to take the pictures you take? a good p&s digital would do just fine, and most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference in the results anyway. gear is 99% about your enjoyment of the hobby, and 1% about what you need to "get the job done" (get the results you want), precisely because you're an amateur, and this is a hobby, it's supposed to be fun, not functional.

and 35mm is about more enjoyment for some people (and it's about less for others, and just about following the "latest greatest trend" for yet some others). if you don't feel it makes sense for you, just ignore it, aps-c is not going away any time soon, don't worry. Loads of other stuff happened since you shoot a dslr which you didn't even notice, it didn't make your camera non-functional, though it might have made it obsolete according to some people who miss the point entirely , but it didn't hurt your enjoyment of the hobby in any way. If you don't care for 35mm, just shrug and go shooting with your perfectly okay aps-c gear.

02-16-2013, 07:09 AM   #8
Veteran Member




Join Date: Sep 2007
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 969
QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
(...)
Shorter registration distances on APS-C don't help with wide lenses,
because they make the edge rays angle too much to the sensels.
i beg your pardon? are you saying my 50/1.4 smc-m lens is focusing closer to it's optical center when mounted to my k-5 than it does when mounted to my pentax film slr? nifty... :P

rectilinear wideangles are simply a vestigial remnant of the film era, they hardly make sense anymore on digital cameras, they should be a specialty niche item now, and be replaced by fisheye designs with in-camera and in-post-processing correction. and if you look at the wide options for aps-c you will notice that it's in no way worse than 35mm anyway (if you buy the right lenses. if you buy an old 24mm and complain it doesn't act wide enough on your aps-c dslr, well, sorry)

Last edited by nanok; 02-16-2013 at 07:18 AM.
02-16-2013, 07:15 AM   #9
Veteran Member




Join Date: Sep 2007
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 969
QuoteOriginally posted by older not wiser Quote
I agree with most of your comments about what sort of camera and lenses that a enthusiast amateur may need. But I am uncertain of the future of the cropped sensor. If full frame sensors come down in price as they seem to be doing there may not be a market for the cropped sensor. In my experience most amateurs are very influenced by the equipment available to professionals.
At the moment I am thinking of replacing my K10, but I don't know if I should go for the excellent K5ii or wait for the rumoured up and coming Pentax full frame. Interesting times are ahead for the enthusiasts SLR.
imho, do neither: go for a k-5 at a ridiculous price. it's still the best sensor money can buy today, it's still better than the k10 in anyway you can imagine (except perhaps the ergonomics will need a bit of getting used to, but it's well worth it), and you can still get it new with full warranty i think -- and this won't be true for long, and it costs "nothing"; now you can wait for the illusive 35mm patiently, while keeping on shooting with a great camera; or just get the k5ii and cut the crap (especially if you care about af)

life is too short, imho, and dslr's are not investment items. just get what makes sense to you now, it's about shooting what you like, not about investing in the gear.
02-16-2013, 07:29 AM   #10
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
WPRESTO's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Massachusetts
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 58,862
As best I can determine, a significant virtue of FF is better high ISO, low light performance = less noise and better IQ at ISO's above 1600. Aside from low light, better high ISO enables hand holding of long lenses with a good combination moderate stopping down (f8~11) while retaining very high shutter speed for wildlife photography where/when a tripod is inconvenient or impossible. I have invested in too many good APC-S only lenses to consider a complete switch to FF. BUT, I might consider FF to milk the very best out of my old SMCA 200 f4 macro and 400f4 Tamron with Pentax 2XL converter.
And as for APS-C being "cropped," I well remember how 35mm was regarded as "miniature," and how tiny the negatives from my Asahi Pentax S seemed after using the HUGE negatives of a folding 616 roll film camera, then stepping "down" to a 620 roll film folder.

Last edited by WPRESTO; 02-16-2013 at 07:41 AM.
02-16-2013, 08:15 AM   #11
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Clinton's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,902
@RockvilleBob I believe what you're saying is right for you, although if you want better AF performance, why haven't you gone to the K5-II?

I dont think any of the FF proponents are suggesting that you should toss your APSC gear, or that APSC gear is worthless. I think what we're saying is that FF gear is what many of us need to move our images to the next level.

Frankly, in a way you're quite right. There really isn't much more they can push in terms of resolution with APSC and the point of diffraction. I suspect the next model will be 24mp and that will be the end all, well unless you only ever want to shoot at F2.8 .

I believe that will probably work for you and your use case great.

Some of us want a 36 or 40mp FF sensor that we can crop the image out of if we want, and get substantially wider high-res images if we can get the glass for it.

I dont think there's conceptually any reason that APSC will be discontinued, or development on it stopped. Also, those with APSC will have access to a broader lens lineup, from the FF line.
02-16-2013, 08:24 AM   #12
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2011
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 4,308
QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
i beg your pardon? are you saying my 50/1.4 smc-m lens is focusing closer to it's optical center when mounted to my k-5 than it does when mounted to my pentax film slr? nifty... :P
Sorry to disappoint you, but no,
my post was about wide angle lenses (more than ninety degree angle of view).

QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
rectilinear wideangles are simply a vestigial remnant of the film era, they hardly make sense anymore on digital cameras, they should be a specialty niche item now, and be replaced by fisheye designs with in-camera and in-post-processing correction.
Interesting point of view.
However, that kind of processing degrades the image,
so genuine rectilinear wide-angles are still the way to go.

See the "defishing" discussion on
Pentax SMC DA 10-17mm f/3.5-4.5 ED[IF] Fisheye - Review / Test Report - Sample Images & Verdict

QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
if you look at the wide options for aps-c you will notice that it's in no way worse than 35mm anyway (if you buy the right lenses. if you buy an old 24mm and complain it doesn't act wide enough on your aps-c dslr, well, sorry)
Wider than ninety degrees (diagonal), and rectilinear?
If you want that for APS-C,
your only options are really big primes and zooms with (D)SLR register distances,
or vignetting and color shifts on mirrorless, like
Voigtlander Ultra-Wide Heliar 12mm f/5.6 Aspherical II on Sony NEX - Review / Lens Test Report - Analysis
02-16-2013, 08:56 AM   #13
Veteran Member
RockvilleBob's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Lewes DE USA
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,780
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Clinton Quote
@RockvilleBob I believe what you're saying is right for you, although if you want better AF performance, why haven't you gone to the K5-II?

I dont think any of the FF proponents are suggesting that you should toss your APSC gear, or that APSC gear is worthless. I think what we're saying is that FF gear is what many of us need to move our images to the next level.

Frankly, in a way you're quite right. There really isn't much more they can push in terms of resolution with APSC and the point of diffraction. I suspect the next model will be 24mp and that will be the end all, well unless you only ever want to shoot at F2.8 .

I believe that will probably work for you and your use case great.

Some of us want a 36 or 40mp FF sensor that we can crop the image out of if we want, and get substantially wider high-res images if we can get the glass for it.

I dont think there's conceptually any reason that APSC will be discontinued, or development on it stopped. Also, those with APSC will have access to a broader lens lineup, from the FF line.
From what I've read the KII and KIIs are not appreciably better in autofocus performance, particularly speed; Canon and Nikon are far superior here. My next camera, hopefully from Pentax, will offer better autofocus performance and access to more lenses at longer focal lengths. If it is a Pentax FF or Pentax cropped makes no difference to me. However if the FF comes a a 2x cost factor, say over $2,000, then the used Canon pro bodies, especially since they introduced their new pro model, become more attractive. Used Canon quality glass is superb and more readily available/affordable than Nikon's roughly equivalent glass. For example for significantly less than the price of the Pentax 560 as introduced I can buy a very good used Canon pro camera, a fast 400mm plus a quality 1.4 TC. The downside in doing this is dealing with two different cameras, The Pentax for all my work except wildlife and sports, and a Canon system for wildlife and sports. My desire is a higher performing Pentax camera at say $1,500 (regardless of sensor size) and access to quality long lenses, plus use of my existing K mount lenses. I feel by this time next year Pentax/Ricoh will have had enough time to demonstrate their intent. With luck Pentax will introduce 2 new cameras, the FF at say $3,000 and the successor to the K-5 at $1,500 or less. That would almost make everyone happy except for the availability of lenses.
02-16-2013, 09:33 AM   #14
Pentaxian
gazonk's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Oslo area, Norway
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,746
QuoteOriginally posted by older not wiser Quote
At the moment I am thinking of replacing my K10, but I don't know if I should go for the excellent K5ii or wait for the rumoured up and coming Pentax full frame. Interesting times are ahead for the enthusiasts SLR.
I replaced my K10D (well, it's still in the house, my teenager son uses it) with K-5 in June, and it's really a significant step up. I think it's a no-brainer that a ~24 mp "K-3" is not very far away, and I also guess it will come in an AA-free "s" version. My daughter has a NEX-7 and it's very close to my K-5 in high ISO performance, so I don't think a new 24mp Pentax will make compromises in the high ISO department.

OTOH - you will get a significant upgrade with the original K-5, so looking out for good offers may be wise, too.
02-16-2013, 09:40 AM   #15
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 691
Er... This is embarrassing. 7D and D7000 af faster than k5, but the accuracy leaves a lot to desire. Go buy them and try on action sports.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
autofocus, camera, ff, k-5, lens, pentax, photo industry, photography, sports, third, wildlife
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Difference Between Full Frame (35mm) Sensor & Cropped (APS-C) Sensor richard balonglong Photographic Industry and Professionals 22 06-28-2012 02:20 AM
K5 vs Full Frame KALAIS Pentax K-5 & K-5 II 21 09-24-2011 11:25 AM
Pentax full frame camera? crystax Troubleshooting and Beginner Help 15 07-29-2011 06:24 PM
full frame DSLR camera, when? yxy728 Photographic Technique 34 04-29-2011 09:29 AM
Full Frame Vs High Quality Cropped Body - Will Pentax Win/Survive in the Game? RiceHigh Pentax News and Rumors 219 05-18-2009 07:15 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:30 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top