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04-24-2013, 11:06 AM   #16
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One of the things I've always found funny about judging is that when someone has a picture that they just know is going to do well, but doesn't...then the judges are wrong and don't know what they're doing. But when that same photographer enters a picture that they don't expect to do well, but it does...the judges are no longer as dumb as they seemed before. Everybody feels entitled to the points they feel they should have earned, but nobody wants to give back the points they got, but didn't expect.

04-24-2013, 02:29 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
One of the things I've always found funny about judging is that when someone has a picture that they just know is going to do well, but doesn't...then the judges are wrong and don't know what they're doing. But when that same photographer enters a picture that they don't expect to do well, but it does...the judges are no longer as dumb as they seemed before. Everybody feels entitled to the points they feel they should have earned, but nobody wants to give back the points they got, but didn't expect.
Well I won't deny that there is some humorous truth in what you are saying. But I also believe that the professionals and enthusiasts that are out there selling their art or photographic services, have a good idea what their work is worth - or they wouldn't have reached that level. As an artist, if you don't believe in the value of your work, you are unlikely to put the work necessary into preparing and selling it.
04-24-2013, 02:47 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
i'm not one of those "do as I say don't do as I do" kind of teachers, I set the standard.
Ya but don't you hate it when you post an example, and half the class tries to copy it, and then complain when they don't get a mark for creativity? Some things about being retired I don't miss.
04-24-2013, 07:42 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
It reminds me of a basic art design class I had in college. The professor would have us post our work up front for evaluation. Once I got low marks for using "predictable geometric shapes". When I pointed out the advanced art students were doing that and were displayed in an exhibition, her response was, "Well, they know what they are doing". I just rolled my eyes.
That would have been frustrating - and I would take that an an example of bad teaching - teachers aren't supposed to limit their students like that. IMO Teachers are a guide - and the students just have to hope we have the right map.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
here's always the old Groucho Marx adage - "I wouldn't want to be a member of a club that would have me as a member."
I'm getting that printed on a T-shirt.

QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
As an artist, if you don't believe in the value of your work, you are unlikely to put the work necessary into preparing and selling it.
Good point - and somethign I take very seriously as well. I don't sell loose prints without mattboards. I have been to plenty of camera clubs where contestants had just entered un-matted prints, In the market presentation counts for a lot of a works perceived value.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
don't you hate it when you post an example, and half the class tries to copy it, and then complain when they don't get a mark for creativity?
Yes, I have had students attempt to copy my work but there is inevitably something different about the execution and the subject when compared to the original image. In the first week of my classes I typically teach about different styles of photography and the photographers who adhered to a particular style, and the evolution of their work. Many of my students I have taught develop a strong sense of artistic integrity and by encouraging that they develop a style of their own.

04-25-2013, 04:45 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Well I won't deny that there is some humorous truth in what you are saying. But I also believe that the professionals and enthusiasts that are out there selling their art or photographic services, have a good idea what their work is worth - or they wouldn't have reached that level.
I was talking about judging complaints I've seen in my camera club where there's only a handful of members who actually sell their work. You're right, though...the ones who do sell their work usually aren't as emotionally invested in the judging as some of the other members. Sure, we all like to do well and hope people like what we produce, but in the end, whose judgement should someone trust? Their publishers or amateur members of their camera club?
04-25-2013, 10:12 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
teachers aren't supposed to limit their students
So true. Even teachers engaged in training mechanical/vocational skills should be providing a basis for the students to use in later life: a platform from which to launch their own career. I've always believed that the end result is more important; the journey may be rewarding but in a different way and not to the same degree.

To this day (almost 50 years later!), I still recall a teacher's comments on a book report I submitted. I was downgraded for using too many colors on my hand-drawn cover! It was a BOOK REPORT for pete's sake and this was NOT an art class!*! Gotta calm down now...
04-25-2013, 12:09 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by jamarley Quote
So true. Even teachers engaged in training mechanical/vocational skills should be providing a basis for the students to use in later life: a platform from which to launch their own career. I've always believed that the end result is more important; the journey may be rewarding but in a different way and not to the same degree.

To this day (almost 50 years later!), I still recall a teacher's comments on a book report I submitted. I was downgraded for using too many colors on my hand-drawn cover! It was a BOOK REPORT for pete's sake and this was NOT an art class!*! Gotta calm down now...
"Best" grade I ever got in High School - pertinent right now because my 40th Reunion is approaching next month.

Written in Red Flair Pen on the front page of a completely full Blue Book:
"88++ Excellent Technical Work.
"Lacks Imagination.
88+ was the highest B+ you could get. 89- was by definition an A-. There wasn't another word or mark anywhere in the Exam Book.

My blood pressure rises even today thinking about that.



04-25-2013, 01:24 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
"Best" grade I ever got in High School - pertinent right now because my 40th Reunion is approaching next month.

Written in Red Flair Pen on the front page of a completely full Blue Book:
"88++ Excellent Technical Work.
"Lacks Imagination.
88+ was the highest B+ you could get. 89- was by definition an A-. There wasn't another word or mark anywhere in the Exam Book.

My blood pressure rises even today thinking about that.

Isn't it amazing how much power those memories wield? That's why more teachers should be aware of the effect their comments can have. My wife teaches Psychology at a local college. I can't say whether her knowledge of my book report story makes her more attentive to her students' needs. She is naturally a good-natured person (which makes her MORE than my better half, LOL), so she spends the time needed to be sure her students have the best chance to actually learn something.

Bringing it back on topic, it seems obvious that camera club judging should likewise lean toward improvement rather than disapproval.
04-25-2013, 01:43 PM   #24
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I kind of like that when I shoot, I shoot mostly just for myself. I've kind of developed my own style (and been commented on that), and just roll with it.

I save the actual thinking on the technical stuff for when I'm trying to shoot for others.

One thing I realzied in any judged competition is that you'll have a half dozen people with a half dozen ideas as to what is good and whats bad, so the ones that win out are the average among the lot. It hardly means that the losers are bad by any means.
04-25-2013, 02:02 PM   #25
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Samotny jeździec.

I do not like clubs (not hate, just it is not for me).
So, I am

04-25-2013, 04:29 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
It reminds me of a basic art design class I had in college. The professor would have us post our work up front for evaluation. Once I got low marks for using "predictable geometric shapes". When I pointed out the advanced art students were doing that and were displayed in an exhibition, her response was, "Well, they know what they are doing". I just rolled my eyes.
My design teacher clearly thought that I was a no-talent from day one. She was obsessed hand drawing and painting everything, was a painter, and I can't draw or paint worth crap, at least not by hand. Give me a graphics tablet and a computer though and I can create some decent stuff. Assignment after assignment she just gave me these pity filled looks, and C's every time to the point where it pissed me off because I knew that if I was just allowed to use a computer and a graphics tablet I could do so much better than most of the people in the class that she thought were better than I am.

Finally towards the end of Design I she lets us touch a computer. First computer assignment, and it's a tough one. She then makes a switch to her usual routine says the whole class will judge and critique and no one will know who did what because each student will enter the classroom in turn and put their stuff up with no one there while the others wait outside. Paper on the door to block any sight of the inside of the room, and she's not in there herself.

Time comes and there all up, and she goes from one to the other judging, critiquing and basically telling the whole class that they really didn't get the assignment quite right. She gets to mine and she just stops, and she smiles, big smile, and she says "This one, it's PERFECT, exactly right, A plus! Now, who did this?" The look on her face when she realized it was me is one the sweetest memories I own. She looked at me, she looked back, and it was just like she could not believe it at all! I was half waiting for her to accuse me of cheating, but a few questions in and she knew I hadn't. I showed her the steps leading to the final version, showed her an alternate one I was still fooling with after class too. In the end she had to give me my due. The funny thing is my other teacher, the one I was in class for Illustration with had told her I could draw, on a computer, but she admitted that she had not believed it, thought the other teacher was being too kind. But in actuality my design skills they were pretty sophisticated. I had been doing that kind of work for a long, long time, on my own. I just could not paint or draw in traditional ways because I had issues with my hands.

I don't much like photography contests and while I am in two clubs here I don't participate in that kind of thing. I don't like to compete with anyone but myself. I tried it here a couple of times but honestly I was uncomfortable with it. I don't even want to judge anyone else's work and I did turn down a request to do that here at one point. I can spot technical imperfections as well as anyone else I suppose but what I like that's very subjective sometimes and what "I" might consider good and what other people consider good are often two different things. An image doesn't actually have to be perfect for me to love it. If it really moves me I can forgive a certain lack of technique sometimes.

I also tend to hate the work of so called genius photographers who take shots of blurred people or simulated dead people and such and who call that their art. I'm the same way with modern art. I like very little of it. Don't show me a fuchsia dot in the middle of a while canvas, with maybe a black lightning bolt to one side and call that genius and expect me to like it. Any 7 year old could do that for cripe's sakes. A lot of the avaunt photographers that the Sunday Art page reviewers so adore praising I think they are totally full of themselves. But I am sure they probably wouldn't consider what I do art either so who cares?

If ever end up on a wall in a gallery so be it, but I'm not courting that. I don't really care what those so called judges of the world might think. I do what I do for two reasons. To make a living and the other stuff because I like doing it. That's it. My photography is how I pay my bills and it's what I do for me. If other people end up liking it, fine, if they want to buy it I'm proud, but I'm not tailoring my personal work for anyone's taste but my own. F- the accolades, excuse my french, but f- them. I won't sell out, make my non-commercial work stuff I can't stand, just to be more popular or famous, I just won't.

I spent over 20 years in retail selling junk things I hated. I often had to mentally prostitute myself just to keep my job, keep those sales coming in. I quit doing that to do this and I am not going backwards, not with the thing I really love doing. There are a lot of people like my design teacher, like those judges out there, ready to declare so authoritatively whether you are talented or a mere pretender but most of them? I wouldn't trust them to pick the pictures and stuff I put on my bathroom walls. :P
04-26-2013, 10:02 AM   #27
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Since I work evening and night shifts and one day out of the weekend, I have never even remotely been able to consider camera clubs. I always just assumed they were folks who got together to shoot. After reading this thread, I guess I'm not missing anything.
04-26-2013, 10:32 AM   #28
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I also tough that camera clubs are a place for photographers to gather and go shooting in groups, trying new stuff and discussing their ideas.
I guess I am not missing anything either ... and I guess some people are getting a little bit too "pompous" when they get to "judge" others.
04-26-2013, 10:55 AM   #29
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It reminds me of a discussion I had last night with my daughter. She's learning poetry and asked what makes a good poem. It occurs to me that the answer can apply to anything can be classified as "art" and that includes photography.

If it provokes an emotion in the person observing, if it reminds you of something in your past, if it causes your mind to actually activate and perhaps challenge you, then it definitely has merit.

A given piece of art will mean different things to different people. You can break it down and weight its merits on purely technical things about it, but it has to encompass a lot more than that. I think that people sometimes get bogged down in the technical aspect.

I've never been a club joining type - I'd prefer to bounce photography ideas off a like-minded friend. That way we can inspire each other and I don't have to or like to seek approval from a group.

I do submit images in this forum, but if you don't like them, if they don't resonate with you, that's perfectly OK. They were what I wanted to photograph and it mattered to me at the time of taking that image. If you like them, and are inspired or somehow affected by the image, then great. if not, that's fine too.

It reminds me of something I read as a kid in a Mad magazine. A guy is at an art gallery, stroking his chin and contemplating an artwork. He turns to the man beside him and says "That really says something, doesn't it?" To which the other man replies "Yeah, 'help, I can't paint!' "

Not everyone agrees what is art, and that's OK.
04-26-2013, 11:14 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by mrNewt Quote
I also tough that camera clubs are a place for photographers to gather and go shooting in groups, trying new stuff and discussing their ideas.
I guess I am not missing anything either ... and I guess some people are getting a little bit too "pompous" when they get to "judge" others.
That's what meetup.com is for...

I belong to 2 meetups here in the Syracuse area. The Syracuse Camera Club on the other hand holds no interest for me. On the competition nights you aren't even allowed to talk to one another during judging...

I did just join the photo group at a local nature center. Other than the 16 year old daughter of one of the members I as the youngest one there...
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