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05-04-2013, 01:23 PM   #1
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A Question about Giving Credit

I went with my photography classmate the other day to get some self portrait pictures.

I lent her my camera and adjusted the camera's ISO, shutter speed, and Aperture settings for her (she was still learning camera settings, i.e. did not know to use a fast shutter speed so the waves don't blur), posed in ways I thought would work, and positioned myself in regards to where the camera was as she shot away.

The original pictures turned out horrible - you can't make them out, and if you just turn up the exposure a lot, they become fairly grainy and not so useable

I edited exposure, clarity, shadows, lighting, and contrast MASSIVELY in Lightroom and cropped in to my liking, and a good few of the pictures look, in my opinion, amazing.

Now, my classmate is REALLY big on receiving credit for the pictures she's taken. I've tonemapped a few pictures of hers in the past and have given her credit, but this time, regarding the editing, I feel way too partial to giving myself the credit, because I feel like I did most of the work.

My question is:

Should I give her credit for the picture?

Sure I can say, "Picture taken by x, edited by me," but honestly I posed the shot, helped compose the picture, and adjusted the camera settings for her, and if people read "Picture taken by her, edited by me," it'd be a natural thing to consider that I only tweaked it while she's the one who made the picture good and editable.

What do you think? All of your opinions matter to me.

Here's one example:

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Last edited by BeginnerDave; 05-04-2013 at 01:36 PM.
05-04-2013, 01:44 PM   #2
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I would just share credit "photo and editing by X and Y" for general collaborations. If you start to feel that your partner isn't contributing enough then stop partnering with her.
05-04-2013, 02:28 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by DeadJohn Quote
I would just share credit "photo and editing by X and Y" for general collaborations. If you start to feel that your partner isn't contributing enough then stop partnering with her.
+1. I fully agree with DeadJohn

I am in a similar line of work where people want to be credited, even for a minimum contribution. Either you work with someone(s) and acknowledge the contribution(s), if each one participated to at least 20% of the final contribution. Or you work with someone else. In many cases, the situation might degenerate too easily into a major dispute, and many individuals are very 'touchy' about credits.

From your message, I would say: go on your own. All the best to you..

Last edited by hcc; 05-04-2013 at 03:46 PM.
05-04-2013, 02:37 PM   #4
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We got into a fight and she doesn't want me to use her pictures or put her pictures up anywhere because it's her property apparently.

What do you think about that?

Edit: I also adjusted the focusing in advance, along with the other camera settings.


Last edited by BeginnerDave; 05-04-2013 at 02:43 PM.
05-04-2013, 03:53 PM   #5
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I think that you reached a point where it is better to move on and work with someone else.

The notion of 'property' may be interpreted at different level, incl. legal property and intellectual property. I deals mostly with intellectual property and the line is thin between ownership. co-ownership and no ownership.

If someone takes a photo using your camera and she asks to keep the photo, that is fine: it is her photograph and you need to respect her ownership.
If you asked someone to take a photo using your camera, and you mostly post-process the photograph, the photograph is yours although it would be professional courtesy to acknowledge the individual who took the photograph.
If you pay someone to take a photograph using your camera, the photograph is yours.

There are many other cases of course and I do not pretend to list all cases.

Hope that the comment may help you to move on.....
05-04-2013, 04:27 PM   #6
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I think that in Sweden it's always the person taking the photo that owns the right to the image, though I don't think you can use another persons editing in every way.
I think that in your case the right "official" thing to say would be cooperation but at least here she in fact would own the pic. Though she would need a model release for commercial stuff like marketing but not for showing and selling it as art.

It sounds like you two should not work together at least.
05-04-2013, 05:04 PM   #7
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Thanks for the replies, everyone.

She and I will not be working together again, of course.

QuoteQuote:
If you asked someone to take a photo using your camera, and you mostly post-process the photograph, the photograph is yours although it would be professional courtesy to acknowledge the individual who took the photograph.
This is exactly the case. I asked her to take the picture with my camera and post processed it.

I recently offered - after it was taken - to say "Picture taken by X, edited by David," but she said it was her intellectual property and that I can't use her pictures (that includes editing).

QuoteOriginally posted by hcc Quote
+and many individuals are very 'touchy' about credits.

From your message, I would say: go on your own. All the best to you..
Seriously, and thank you.

05-04-2013, 05:25 PM   #8
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Why argue about something not worth arguing about? Delete them and go make better.
05-04-2013, 05:52 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by BeginnerDave Quote
but she said it was her intellectual property and that I can't use her pictures (that includes editing).
And she would be correct. She pushed the button, that makes it hers. It also makes her a bit of a #$%&^ but that's life. In my opinion she is not a partner I would want to work with. Either work on your own or find someone that understands what 'partner' means. And perhaps in the future spell out the terms of the partnership. If you are setting everything up and just getting someone else to push the button, then you should discuss beforehand who owns the copyright. Unless spelled out prior, the person pushing the button is the copyright holder.

I also learned a long time ago that you will take many pictures during a career, worrying about a few just distracts you from the big picture. It is disappointing but you have learned a lesson.
05-04-2013, 08:58 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by BeginnerDave Quote
... she said it was her intellectual property and that I can't use her pictures (that includes editing)....
This is seriously debatable and I respectfully disagree with jatrax. I believe that there is an important point to make in relation to intellectual property and copyright.

If you asked someone to take a shot, you directed the shot, it was your camera and you edited the shot, she has not valid claim on any form of intellectual property (IMO). She only pressed a button. In that instance, you directed the shot, you produced the shot by supplying the camera and you edited the shot. It could be fair to acknowledge the hand which held the camera. Full stop. No property, no copyright, possibly a simple acknowledgement (eg at end of photograph caption) by professional courtesy, but definitely no more.

There is also some international conventions in relation to intellectual property and copyright, incl. photographic rights, intellectual right of academic works, music rights, ..... In most cases, good common sense will apply across the all boundaries, independently of languages, continents and hemisphere. (Off course it is acknowledged that there are different customs in different countries.)

Let us agree with Ponosby Britt and let's move on....

Last edited by hcc; 05-04-2013 at 09:34 PM.
05-04-2013, 10:03 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by hcc Quote
This is seriously debatable and I respectfully disagree with jatrax.
Well according to PMA "The law says the "author" is the owner of the copyright. The author of a photo or image is usually the person who snapped the shutter or created the image. If you took the photo, you own the copyright." (KODAK: Copyright Guidelines) Now this is quoting US law, not international, and might very well be different in other countries.

In any case copyright law is convoluted, often unclear, and certainly different in different countries. The take away here is to make sure things like this are clear up front before any images are taken. In this case with some pictures taken by school partners it is unlikely any large amount of money is involved. But consider how this might be different if the pictures were newsworthy or salable.

Hcc, I do not mean to start an argument, this is the way I have always understood the law to apply but I am not a lawyer or even well versed in this area. You may be completely correct. This situation is certainly a gray area at best with one person directing the shoot and thus 'creating the image' while another person 'snapped the shutter'.

The best suggestion to the OP is to just move on. However, all of us as photographers should be aware of copyright law and how it affects us and the images we take. If you are shooting for money then this is extremely important but even if you are a hobbyist and have no intention of ever selling anything you should still be aware of the law and your rights.
05-05-2013, 03:05 PM   #12
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I would have to agree with hcc on this. How many times have you been out somewhere and some tourist hands you their point and shoot and ask if you would take their picture. Can you then hand them back the camera but tell them they can't use the photo because it is yours. It just doesn't make any sense.
05-05-2013, 03:13 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ivor K Ecks Quote
tell them they can't use the photo because it is yours
Especially if you don't speak their language, good luck with that one.

We need a phrase book with just that one phrase in it, translated into all the other languages.
05-05-2013, 03:33 PM   #14
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This reminds me of the story where a photographer's camera was stolen by a group of monkeys, who then proceeded to take some awesome self-portraits. There was a lot of talk about who, if anyone, owned the copyright to the pictures, since they weren't taken by a person. I'm not sure what the conclusion was.

I believe hcc is correct in saying that whoever made all the creative decisions in a photograph is the copyright owner, but these are convoluted legal matters which I have no authority in. I would just avoid the issue completely by using one of these:

If all you need is someone to press the button, there are lots of different ways to get the camera to do that on its own.
05-05-2013, 03:47 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by scratchpaddy Quote
I believe hcc is correct in saying that whoever made all the creative decisions in a photograph is the copyright owner, but these are convoluted legal matters which I have no authority in. I would just avoid the issue completely by using one of these:

If all you need is someone to press the button, there are lots of different ways to get the camera to do that on its own.
That is exactly what I was about to say...until I reached your post. The IR remote is the perfect solution. A great little accessory.
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