What If The Problem Is That You Suck?

ChristianRock · 11-13-2014, 09:40 AM

That was a very good article. I can see the heart of what the guy is saying - if you're going to do something, do it with excellence and do the best you can, and don't forget to put a ton of effort perfecting your craft before you attempt to sell yourself. It's an old concept, just said in a different way

As for me, I know I suck, and I have my excuses - which don't change the fact that I do suck compared to so many others

However, when I'm out with the kids at a park or having a little birthday party for them, I'm the only photographer I can afford, so I do my best and even if the pictures suck compared to what a pro could do, at least I got some pictures and they're slowly improving, to the point I am not too ashamed to show them to others in our circle of family/friends...

It all depends on your objectives are, and then you decide if the objective is possible within the constraints you have. If it isn't, you commit yourself to a more realistic objective. Which is what I did - in several areas of my life. Photography wise, I'm not going to be Ansel Adams even if part of me would love to... so my objective is just to try and get good pictures of my wife and kids, and then also play around with the camera sometimes and have fun with it.

Winder · 11-13-2014, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

I think marketing really is key to growing.

Marketing is one really important aspect of it, but just one.
You need to constantly be producing good work and putting it out there. If not paying work then it needs to be personal projects.
Your work needs to connect with people. I see a lot of technically good work that is sterile. Sure it has composition, exposure, color, sharpness, but it doesn't connect. people get too obsessed with the technical.

You have to have something to market before marketing matters.

stevebrot · 11-13-2014, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by tvdtvdtvd

They each want to see each other
succeed and will typically make efforts to help others do so. Without telling them they
suck.

I believe I understand what you are saying. Using the word "suck" is judgmental. There is little room in this world to simply dismiss another person's work as sucky, even if you do not find it appealing. I believe it was the intent of the article for professional photographers to honestly self-evaluate their product and business rather to indict the bulk of the profession.

Returning to the realm of artist-to-artist critique, I think it is important to remember that relatively few people intentionally do a crummy job at their art expecting acceptance and praise.* This is as true in photography as in throwing clay for pots. People generally share their work for one of two reasons:

They are proud of what they have done (most common)
They are frustrated by their progress and are seeking advice

Here on the Pentax forums, users post their output on a daily basis. Sometimes it is just to share, other times it is for critique, and occasionally it is done as part of a competition. It is important, IMHO, that in each case care should be given to remember that the person would not have posted their work if they were not pleased with it on some level. There is no room for simply saying "it sucks" or something similar.

I don't take part in the critique section of this site, though I have been involved in the photo challenges in the past. I have never been involved with a more supportive bunch of people nor have I seen such a variety of work. Those threads are part of what makes this site great. I currently serve as a judge for PEG (Pentax Exclusive Gallery on this site). That is difficult due to the nature of the gallery. It is supposed to be exclusive, meaning that a distinction must be made between the 1% and the 99%. While most submissions don't suck, some are best characterized as appealing more to the maker than to the intended audience. How do you "build up" in the judging comments without discouraging the submitter? I don't have a good answer to that. I wish it were as easy as sitting down at the potter's wheel next to one's colleague and demonstrating how to form the clay.

Steve

* A few narcissists might...but let's not go there...

normhead · 11-13-2014, 09:46 AM - **2 Likes**

I've found going to shows really interesting. Maybe because I haven't done enough of them to get bored with them but, sure only one in 20 people stop, and one in 20 of them stop to talk, but the first thing you discover is, your photographic eye is unique and there are other people who like the way you shoot. The only way I'd ever say my photography sucked would be if I was taking pictures I didn't like. In my experience, if I like them, other people will like them too. Maybe a small subset of the people who see your pictures, say one in 400, but, but if you divide the number of people out there by 400, that's still millions of people that are your market. Every photographer is a star. Just nobody knows it.

**monochrome** · 11-13-2014, 09:51 AM - **1 Like**

Any human who can read a book, remember a picture and interpret dials and gauges can eventually learn how to, with enough practice, create competent photographs. There exists a shared language, a jargon if you will, of composition, light and space that the informed understand and intuitively interpret. Learning and using tools to communicate in this language is akin to learning and writing (or speaking) in any language which is not your native tongue. It's really just brain and muscle chemicals, the properties of binocular vision and the body's capacity to adapt and respond to positive (and negative) reinforcements. We get better at what works. We discard what doesn't.

That which cannot be learned is the desire to improve, the willingness to practice and - for those rare individuals who truly do have an innate capacity to see artistically - the ability to create something in an image which actually exists in nature but is somehow hidden from the average viewer.

stevebrot · 11-13-2014, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by ChristianRock

I'm the only photographer I can afford, so I do my best...

Wow! You really nailed it in so many ways. Thank you for your thoughts.

Steve

---------- Post added 11-13-14 at 08:59 AM ----------

Originally posted by monochrome

Any human who can read a book, remember a picture and interpret dials and gauges can eventually learn how to, with enough practice, create competent photographs. There exists a shared language, a jargon if you will, of composition, light and space that the informed understand and intuitively interpret. Learning and using tools to communicate in this language is akin to learning and writing (or speaking) in any language which is not your native tongue. It's really just brain and muscle chemicals, the properties of binocular vision and the body's capacity to adapt and respond to positive (and negative) reinforcements. We get better at what works. We discard what doesn't.

That which cannot be learned is the desire to improve, the willingness to practice and - for those rare individuals who truly do have an innate capacity to see artistically - the ability to create something in an image which actually exists in nature but is somehow hidden from the average viewer.

Thank you for this comment. I know so many people for whom digital photography has opened the door for personal creativity and for the expression of the inner vision that has always been there.

Steve

cxdoo · 11-13-2014, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by normhead

I've found going to shows really interesting. Maybe because I haven't done enough of them to get bored with them but, sure only one in 20 people stop, and one in 20 of them stop to talk, but the first thing you discover is, your photographic eye is unique and there are other people who like the way you shoot. The only way I'd ever say my photography sucked would be if I was taking pictures I didn't like. In my experience, if I like them, other people will like them too. Maybe a small subset of the people who see your pictures, say one in 400, but, but if you divide the number of people out there by 400, that's still millions of people that are your market. Every photographer is a star. Just nobody knows it.

Amen to that, with a qualification that if you live by your photography, a lot of other people better like it.
But, I take photos for my pleasure. If I like it, it doesn't suck.

ChristianRock · 11-13-2014, 10:27 AM

I used to have a t-shirt that had a drawing of Mozart and a saying of his: “I pay no attention whatever to anybody’s praise or blame. I simply follow my own feelings.”

Now, that's not an excuse to be sloppy, so I can appreciate what the article says, as well, and not think more highly of myself than I should. Mozart also said this: “It is a mistake to think that the practice of my art has become easy to me. I assure you, dear friend, no one has given so much care to the study of composition as I. There is scarcely a famous master in music whose works I have not frequently and diligently studied.”
But of course, it was part of his job to do it

Photography doesn't pay my bills so I can't obsess over it.

RoxnDox · 11-13-2014, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by cxdoo

But, I take photos for my pleasure. If I like it, it doesn't suck.

Absolutely! If my photos meet *my* expectations, they are a success. If not, then I can improve to the point where *I* am satisfied.

Jim

mecrox · 11-13-2014, 03:27 PM

Quote:

"One of these days, I'm going to publish a book of all the pictures I did not take. It is going to be a huge hit." - René Burri

Seriously, spending time with the greats, and Burri was one, is way more productive than internet articles which adopt a rather aggressive and demeaning approach. You can't make progress if you don't know what you are doing wrong, or right, or what or how to do better - so a teacher or teachers are important, I think - people who really do know their stuff. That could be studying the work of a master or attending courses or workshops of some kind, taught by someone you respect. One person whose approach I like is Alain Briot. Many of his articles, particularly about developing a personal style, can be found on Luminous Landscape.

I just do all this for personal enjoyment. I do want to give my best and eschew the second rate, but quite honestly most of the little I know has not come from the internet. A good example of too much internet would be unconsciously falling into what one might call the standard look. There seems to be one at any given time, though naturally it changes. Go to Flickr and one can see this almost straight away: arresting angles where the photograph becomes all about the lens (often a WA) and the angle of view rather than about the composition itself, rather loud colours and contrast, extreme landscape and lighting effects (the fad for long exposures), smoothly processed images courtesy of all that PP software. Often these images have been so processed that all the life has been erased from them. This is not what it's about, imho. But of course, the next guy may disagree completely. Anyway, to quote René Burri again:

Quote:

"Everybody now has a cell phone and can take snaps which is great – even children. But my advice for young photographers - what I think young photographers should do - is to go and cover things that nobody else is thinking about. Put your nose into things. Use the third eye of the camera and don't be completely dependent on photoshop or the way other people want you to cast the world. Go and discover for yourself, because the fantastic thing about photography is that you are able to freeze a moment that can never come back."

SpecialK · 11-13-2014, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by Winder

Getting paid is pretty amazing, but having the client cry when she goes through the pictures is pretty special.

I think it depends why she is crying....

Winder · 11-13-2014, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by SpecialK

I think it depends why she is crying....

LOL... this is true.

We have gotten to where we include photobooks in our packages. If we have a contract for maternity, newborn, 3/6/9/12 month pictures we provide a "1st Year" book at the end. I typically try to meet with the client and deliver the book in person. At their home or at a coffee shop. I see tears of joy and its pretty special..... That also sells "2nd Year books" and I get some orders from proud grandparents.

johnmflores · 11-17-2014, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by tvdtvdtvd

I can honestly say I've never heard one potter say to another potter, "The reason you can't sell pots is because you suck."

Can confirm. My wife's a potter, and is part of a very supportive community. I think that part of it has to do with the fact that pottery is inherently social; very few people have the means to own and operate their own kiln and thus firings are shared events that knit the community together. Likewise with glass-blowing and other arts that encourage collaboration. Photography is by contrast, quite different.

Originally posted by stevebrot

Tragic mismatch between market and output, perhaps?

To a person, every potter I have met has fallen deeply in love with their medium and producing work gives them much joy. Where's the tragedy in that?

stevebrot · 11-17-2014, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by johnmflores

Where's the tragedy in that?

I understand what you are saying in regards to potters and how the medium fulfills deep needs. It is only a tragedy when there is the expectation of sales and where sales are the ultimate source of affirmation. I would suggest that the same is true for photography as an art.

Steve

johnmflores · 11-17-2014, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

I understand what you are saying in regards to potters and how the medium fulfills deep needs. It is only a tragedy when there is the expectation of sales and where sales are the ultimate source of affirmation. I would suggest that the same is true for photography as an art.

I wonder how many potters think that sales are the "ultimate source of affirmation"? Likewise photographers. I know pro photographers that have raised families and put children through college using just their skill, experience, and a camera but are more proud of and emotionally invested in their personal photography projects than their paid work.

11-13-2014, 09:46 AM	#18
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by tvdtvdtvd They each want to see each other succeed and will typically make efforts to help others do so. Without telling them they suck. I believe I understand what you are saying. Using the word "suck" is judgmental. There is little room in this world to simply dismiss another person's work as sucky, even if you do not find it appealing. I believe it was the intent of the article for professional photographers to honestly self-evaluate their product and business rather to indict the bulk of the profession. Returning to the realm of artist-to-artist critique, I think it is important to remember that relatively few people intentionally do a crummy job at their art expecting acceptance and praise.* This is as true in photography as in throwing clay for pots. People generally share their work for one of two reasons: They are proud of what they have done (most common) They are frustrated by their progress and are seeking advice Here on the Pentax forums, users post their output on a daily basis. Sometimes it is just to share, other times it is for critique, and occasionally it is done as part of a competition. It is important, IMHO, that in each case care should be given to remember that the person would not have posted their work if they were not pleased with it on some level. There is no room for simply saying "it sucks" or something similar. I don't take part in the critique section of this site, though I have been involved in the photo challenges in the past. I have never been involved with a more supportive bunch of people nor have I seen such a variety of work. Those threads are part of what makes this site great. I currently serve as a judge for PEG (Pentax Exclusive Gallery on this site). That is difficult due to the nature of the gallery. It is supposed to be exclusive, meaning that a distinction must be made between the 1% and the 99%. While most submissions don't suck, some are best characterized as appealing more to the maker than to the intended audience. How do you "build up" in the judging comments without discouraging the submitter? I don't have a good answer to that. I wish it were as easy as sitting down at the potter's wheel next to one's colleague and demonstrating how to form the clay. Steve * A few narcissists might...but let's not go there...

11-13-2014, 03:27 PM	#25
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	Quote: "One of these days, I'm going to publish a book of all the pictures I did not take. It is going to be a huge hit." - René Burri Seriously, spending time with the greats, and Burri was one, is way more productive than internet articles which adopt a rather aggressive and demeaning approach. You can't make progress if you don't know what you are doing wrong, or right, or what or how to do better - so a teacher or teachers are important, I think - people who really do know their stuff. That could be studying the work of a master or attending courses or workshops of some kind, taught by someone you respect. One person whose approach I like is Alain Briot. Many of his articles, particularly about developing a personal style, can be found on Luminous Landscape. I just do all this for personal enjoyment. I do want to give my best and eschew the second rate, but quite honestly most of the little I know has not come from the internet. A good example of too much internet would be unconsciously falling into what one might call the standard look. There seems to be one at any given time, though naturally it changes. Go to Flickr and one can see this almost straight away: arresting angles where the photograph becomes all about the lens (often a WA) and the angle of view rather than about the composition itself, rather loud colours and contrast, extreme landscape and lighting effects (the fad for long exposures), smoothly processed images courtesy of all that PP software. Often these images have been so processed that all the life has been erased from them. This is not what it's about, imho. But of course, the next guy may disagree completely. Anyway, to quote René Burri again: Quote: "Everybody now has a cell phone and can take snaps which is great – even children. But my advice for young photographers - what I think young photographers should do - is to go and cover things that nobody else is thinking about. Put your nose into things. Use the third eye of the camera and don't be completely dependent on photoshop or the way other people want you to cast the world. Go and discover for yourself, because the fantastic thing about photography is that you are able to freeze a moment that can never come back." Last edited by mecrox; 11-13-2014 at 11:10 PM.

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11-13-2014, 09:40 AM	#16
ChristianRock Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: People's Republic of America Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,910	That was a very good article. I can see the heart of what the guy is saying - if you're going to do something, do it with excellence and do the best you can, and don't forget to put a ton of effort perfecting your craft before you attempt to sell yourself. It's an old concept, just said in a different way As for me, I know I suck, and I have my excuses - which don't change the fact that I do suck compared to so many others However, when I'm out with the kids at a park or having a little birthday party for them, I'm the only photographer I can afford, so I do my best and even if the pictures suck compared to what a pro could do, at least I got some pictures and they're slowly improving, to the point I am not too ashamed to show them to others in our circle of family/friends... It all depends on your objectives are, and then you decide if the objective is possible within the constraints you have. If it isn't, you commit yourself to a more realistic objective. Which is what I did - in several areas of my life. Photography wise, I'm not going to be Ansel Adams even if part of me would love to... so my objective is just to try and get good pictures of my wife and kids, and then also play around with the camera sometimes and have fun with it.

11-13-2014, 09:40 AM	#17
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617 Original Poster	Originally posted by Rondec I think marketing really is key to growing. Marketing is one really important aspect of it, but just one. You need to constantly be producing good work and putting it out there. If not paying work then it needs to be personal projects. Your work needs to connect with people. I see a lot of technically good work that is sterile. Sure it has composition, exposure, color, sharpness, but it doesn't connect. people get too obsessed with the technical. You have to have something to market before marketing matters.

11-13-2014, 09:46 AM - 2 Likes	#19
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	I've found going to shows really interesting. Maybe because I haven't done enough of them to get bored with them but, sure only one in 20 people stop, and one in 20 of them stop to talk, but the first thing you discover is, your photographic eye is unique and there are other people who like the way you shoot. The only way I'd ever say my photography sucked would be if I was taking pictures I didn't like. In my experience, if I like them, other people will like them too. Maybe a small subset of the people who see your pictures, say one in 400, but, but if you divide the number of people out there by 400, that's still millions of people that are your market. Every photographer is a star. Just nobody knows it.

11-13-2014, 09:51 AM - 1 Like	#20
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Any human who can read a book, remember a picture and interpret dials and gauges can eventually learn how to, with enough practice, create competent photographs. There exists a shared language, a jargon if you will, of composition, light and space that the informed understand and intuitively interpret. Learning and using tools to communicate in this language is akin to learning and writing (or speaking) in any language which is not your native tongue. It's really just brain and muscle chemicals, the properties of binocular vision and the body's capacity to adapt and respond to positive (and negative) reinforcements. We get better at what works. We discard what doesn't. That which cannot be learned is the desire to improve, the willingness to practice and - for those rare individuals who truly do have an innate capacity to see artistically - the ability to create something in an image which actually exists in nature but is somehow hidden from the average viewer.

11-13-2014, 09:55 AM	#21
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by ChristianRock I'm the only photographer I can afford, so I do my best... Wow! You really nailed it in so many ways. Thank you for your thoughts. Steve ---------- Post added 11-13-14 at 08:59 AM ---------- Originally posted by monochrome Any human who can read a book, remember a picture and interpret dials and gauges can eventually learn how to, with enough practice, create competent photographs. There exists a shared language, a jargon if you will, of composition, light and space that the informed understand and intuitively interpret. Learning and using tools to communicate in this language is akin to learning and writing (or speaking) in any language which is not your native tongue. It's really just brain and muscle chemicals, the properties of binocular vision and the body's capacity to adapt and respond to positive (and negative) reinforcements. We get better at what works. We discard what doesn't. That which cannot be learned is the desire to improve, the willingness to practice and - for those rare individuals who truly do have an innate capacity to see artistically - the ability to create something in an image which actually exists in nature but is somehow hidden from the average viewer. Thank you for this comment. I know so many people for whom digital photography has opened the door for personal creativity and for the expression of the inner vision that has always been there. Steve

11-13-2014, 10:00 AM	#22
cxdoo Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Limassol, Cyprus Posts: 1,150	Originally posted by normhead I've found going to shows really interesting. Maybe because I haven't done enough of them to get bored with them but, sure only one in 20 people stop, and one in 20 of them stop to talk, but the first thing you discover is, your photographic eye is unique and there are other people who like the way you shoot. The only way I'd ever say my photography sucked would be if I was taking pictures I didn't like. In my experience, if I like them, other people will like them too. Maybe a small subset of the people who see your pictures, say one in 400, but, but if you divide the number of people out there by 400, that's still millions of people that are your market. Every photographer is a star. Just nobody knows it. Amen to that, with a qualification that if you live by your photography, a lot of other people better like it. But, I take photos for my pleasure. If I like it, it doesn't suck.

11-13-2014, 10:27 AM	#23
ChristianRock Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: People's Republic of America Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,910	I used to have a t-shirt that had a drawing of Mozart and a saying of his: “I pay no attention whatever to anybody’s praise or blame. I simply follow my own feelings.” Now, that's not an excuse to be sloppy, so I can appreciate what the article says, as well, and not think more highly of myself than I should. Mozart also said this: “It is a mistake to think that the practice of my art has become easy to me. I assure you, dear friend, no one has given so much care to the study of composition as I. There is scarcely a famous master in music whose works I have not frequently and diligently studied.” But of course, it was part of his job to do it Photography doesn't pay my bills so I can't obsess over it.

11-13-2014, 11:24 AM	#24
RoxnDox Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Gig Harbor, Washington, USA, Terra Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,494	Originally posted by cxdoo But, I take photos for my pleasure. If I like it, it doesn't suck. Absolutely! If my photos meet my expectations, they are a success. If not, then I can improve to the point where I am satisfied. Jim

11-13-2014, 03:39 PM	#26
SpecialK Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: So California Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,480	Originally posted by Winder Getting paid is pretty amazing, but having the client cry when she goes through the pictures is pretty special. I think it depends why she is crying....

11-13-2014, 03:45 PM	#27
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617 Original Poster	Originally posted by SpecialK I think it depends why she is crying.... LOL... this is true. We have gotten to where we include photobooks in our packages. If we have a contract for maternity, newborn, 3/6/9/12 month pictures we provide a "1st Year" book at the end. I typically try to meet with the client and deliver the book in person. At their home or at a coffee shop. I see tears of joy and its pretty special..... That also sells "2nd Year books" and I get some orders from proud grandparents.

11-17-2014, 11:20 AM	#28
johnmflores Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Somerville, NJ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,361	Originally posted by tvdtvdtvd I can honestly say I've never heard one potter say to another potter, "The reason you can't sell pots is because you suck." Can confirm. My wife's a potter, and is part of a very supportive community. I think that part of it has to do with the fact that pottery is inherently social; very few people have the means to own and operate their own kiln and thus firings are shared events that knit the community together. Likewise with glass-blowing and other arts that encourage collaboration. Photography is by contrast, quite different. Originally posted by stevebrot Tragic mismatch between market and output, perhaps? To a person, every potter I have met has fallen deeply in love with their medium and producing work gives them much joy. Where's the tragedy in that?

11-17-2014, 11:56 AM	#29
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by johnmflores Where's the tragedy in that? I understand what you are saying in regards to potters and how the medium fulfills deep needs. It is only a tragedy when there is the expectation of sales and where sales are the ultimate source of affirmation. I would suggest that the same is true for photography as an art. Steve

11-17-2014, 02:05 PM	#30
johnmflores Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Somerville, NJ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,361	Originally posted by stevebrot I understand what you are saying in regards to potters and how the medium fulfills deep needs. It is only a tragedy when there is the expectation of sales and where sales are the ultimate source of affirmation. I would suggest that the same is true for photography as an art. I wonder how many potters think that sales are the "ultimate source of affirmation"? Likewise photographers. I know pro photographers that have raised families and put children through college using just their skill, experience, and a camera but are more proud of and emotionally invested in their personal photography projects than their paid work.