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11-27-2015, 03:03 PM   #16
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First: great photos!
Second: (very, very general information here) I have noticed many non-profit/public gardens happily entertain casual (non-commercial) photography but require permitting/fees for any commercial photography.

11-27-2015, 04:41 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Quartermaster James Quote
First: great photos!
Second: (very, very general information here) I have noticed many non-profit/public gardens happily entertain casual (non-commercial) photography but require permitting/fees for any commercial photography.
And this, it seems to me, is the only other issue you should investigate. The organization should have a written by-laws. You might also ask around (either in the organization or in the photo community) if they also (or instead) have an informal policy regarding photography of their animals for commercial purposes.

If they do have a policy (formal or informal), see what freedom you have to work within it. If they don't, offer to meet with their director or even with their Board. Explain that you are happy to use your photo to publicize their good work and to bring some needed funds to their non-profit endeavor. But insist that you get some reasonable percentage of any proceeds.

You said "there were talks".... I assume you mean that the non-profit started talks with you (or you with them) about an apparel line with your photo. If you and they have already been in "talks", then assure them that you would like to go forward with a partnership. Remind them that photography has become more and more devalued, and that you believe that a photographer should be able to earn money from his photography. Assure them that you are more than willing to work out a mutually beneficial arrangement with them.

That's really all you can do. If they say "no", you are free to use the photo for your own commercial purposes. But if you do, it might be politic to advertise that you will donate a percentage of proceeds back to that non-profit. And, you might tell the non-profit that that is what you intend to do if you two cannot agree on an arrangement. It would show good faith on your part.

Good luck, and let us know how this all works out.
11-27-2015, 05:47 PM   #18
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"A property release is a legal release signed by the owner of property used in a photograph or video granting permission to use or publish the photograph or video in one form or another.
Authors do not need one for public property, such as government buildings (although you may run into problems just from photographing/videoing them, for security reasons!). For images of private property — and particularly of objects that are closely identified with specific people — photographers are urged to get a release.
Most animals in zoos are the property of the zoo and usually cannot be used for commercial purposes without the consent of the zoo."
Im afraid you are outta luck.
11-27-2015, 06:50 PM - 1 Like   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Love the 2 images you posted.
Thanks! I've been told that I see (photograph) things different than most wildlife photographers. I'm big on isolating subjects.
QuoteOriginally posted by johnyates Quote
They only receive full proceeds if you agree--after all it's your image--you created it. So they have a choice. They can be partners with you in this venture and both parties benefit, or the project does not proceed and they get nothing.
and that's not something I'd agree on. My time is worth money and it did take time to drive to location, photograph bird, edit photo. It's taken time to call print shops for quotes, drive to sample shirts and will take more time to pick up shirts when ready. That's a lot of time for an organization not wanting me to have any cut in it.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ontarian50 Quote
they can easily turn to one of the other photographers who were there that day with their "pro" gear, and get them to donate an image.
and they probably have ALOT of photographers who'd love to do exclusive work with them. While I'd like to, I'm also easily put off when greed presents itself.

QuoteOriginally posted by BrianR Quote
Seems a little late to deny where it was taken if the OP has already contacted them saying it was taken at their facility. And posted here saying it was taken at a facility in BC. Never leave a contradictory paper trail (digital or otherwise) if you plan to lie.
I'm fine with the paper trail. From my perspective, (someone point me out if I'm wrong) I took a photo and offered to spend my time and money to produce apparel, giving them a cut of the proceeds. They didn't have to do anything, not even allow me to use their logo. They said no to free money. It only makes them look foolish.

QuoteOriginally posted by Quartermaster James Quote
First: great photos!
Second: (very, very general information here) I have noticed many non-profit/public gardens happily entertain casual (non-commercial) photography but require permitting/fees for any commercial photography.
At these open houses, you get everyone from "I can't figure out my point and shoot" to really well known pro photogs. They've never told anyone that they can't take photo's, commercial or otherwise.

Sholtzma - I'm acquaintances with some people on the board. I was speaking with one of them about my idea. How I would donate a percentage to them. Our talk only covered the first image in this thread and most of the board is well aware of the photographic industry (wildlife specific) and how tough it is to get into it. We covered almost everything in our conversation, I just had to get board approval. They didn't say no, they just said "ok but only if we get all the money". They gave no room for negotiation.

QuoteOriginally posted by Sliver-Surfer Quote
"A property release is a legal release signed by the owner of property used in a photograph or video granting permission to use or publish the photograph or video in one form or another.
Authors do not need one for public property, such as government buildings (although you may run into problems just from photographing/videoing them, for security reasons!). For images of private property — and particularly of objects that are closely identified with specific people — photographers are urged to get a release.
Most animals in zoos are the property of the zoo and usually cannot be used for commercial purposes without the consent of the zoo."
Im afraid you are outta luck.
I was just speaking with a friend who use to work at the zoo, all their animals are property of the Provincial Government. They only possess the permits to house and care for them.

They should really put a cap on how many times you can quote someone in one response.

11-27-2015, 06:54 PM   #20
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So does that make the animals public domain then?
11-27-2015, 07:18 PM - 1 Like   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by dansamy Quote
So does that make the animals public domain then?
Pretty much
11-27-2015, 09:30 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kameko Quote
Pretty much
A little bit of research on the permitting process would go a long way - i.e., how they came to acquire / keep the birds, which is essentially ownership. If they essentially turn out to be public property - then I would hazard a guess that you are reasonably safe.



11-28-2015, 06:43 PM   #23
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Right, I am suggesting that you take their "we get all and you get none" as the beginnings of a negotiation, whether or not they intended it that way. You take the high road. Offer them a percentage split; make it generous to them. If they start negotiating in earnest, fine. If not, you have done all you can. They only look stubborn for turning down a chance at needed income for a non-profit.
11-28-2015, 11:54 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by sholtzma Quote
Right, I am suggesting that you take their "we get all and you get none" as the beginnings of a negotiation, whether or not they intended it that way. You take the high road. Offer them a percentage split; make it generous to them. If they start negotiating in earnest, fine. If not, you have done all you can. They only look stubborn for turning down a chance at needed income for a non-profit.
I get what you're saying now. I'll definitely revisit it in the very near future. It's hard to believe that anyone would say "no, don't give us free money", maybe once I can sit down with the entire board, we'll be able to come to some mutual agreement.

I ended up putting in an order for the burrowing owl shirts yesterday, so I'll have to wait to see how those go before I venture into other raptor bird shirts, including the barn owl.

Thanks everyone for your help
12-04-2015, 01:28 PM   #25
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The only experience I have that's relevant to this situation would be taking photos at the Calgary Zoo, which does have a policy in place stating “the commercial use of photographs, video and film you take during your visit is strictly prohibited without full written consent”. This seems to apply to both general visits by the public and special events. Not sure if something similar is in effect here.


Great images!




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12-04-2015, 01:49 PM   #26
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Did you have any sort of contract? A contract would have laid out expectations in advance.
It could also have protected your right to use the photo in a commercial sense, regardless of their decision to work with you further.

Lots of minutiae in laws that vary by location (at least in the US they may vary state to state).
The animals and the property may or may not be a legal issue. (I would side with neither being much of an issue... but I am not a lawyer)

The US is probably a lot more litigation addicted, but I would suggest either,
1) get a lawyer, do not rely on information found on the Internet if you feel the other side may take legal action
or
2) let it go and chalk it up to experience.
12-04-2015, 02:02 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by polachekphotography Quote
The only experience I have that's relevant to this situation would be taking photos at the Calgary Zoo, which does have a policy in place stating “the commercial use of photographs, video and film you take during your visit is strictly prohibited without full written consent”. This seems to apply to both general visits by the public and special events. Not sure if something similar is in effect here.
You've reminded me of the Vancouver Aquarium's awesome policy on photography by guests, which features these highlights:
  • Anyone capturing images or footage at the Aquarium may be asked to provide access to the image/footage for use by the Aquarium, the rightful holder of all images/footage.
  • As the Aquarium is the rightful holder of any image/footage taken within the Aquarium’s premises, the Aquarium has the right to share the image/footage with its partners for use in marketing, promotions or communications.
12-04-2015, 09:59 PM   #28
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this rehab society doesn't appear to have any sort of photography clause. When they put on these public events, they invite everyone and their camera's, media included. They don't moderate who's taking what photo's of whichever birds.

This is what I went with instead. I have to say, aside from the crappy iPhone photo I'm really happy with how the image looks on the t-shirt. I think it might be better than my original one
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12-04-2015, 10:52 PM   #29
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Great shot. I like the screen-print too. But it's too low on the shirt for me to wear.
I was thinking this would be something more like a "pocket owl."
As to the facility's photography clause, I guess the question now is down to whether they need one. Media is not necessarily "commercial use."
That said, assuming that the location is the one aforementioned but not yet verified, I have seen nothing on their website to prevent you from taking any photographs for any commercial or non-commercial use.
Cheers!
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