[nanhi]

This topic is from PhotographyTalk. The title used by them is not very apt though. So here is a short extract of the topic:-

"One of the major problems of professional photography today is that people have begun to think that it’s no longer worth paying for and that haggling is the best way to get what they want for cheap. These are the same people who wouldn’t dare go to a supermarket and try to negotiate a discount .....
Why is this happening? There isn’t a straight answer ..... and people have a tendency to believe that if they talk to the owner of the studio, there is room for negotiating and cutting down prices. So what can you do when you get bullied into a forced negotiation? First of all, stand your ground. Deliver the message in a confident, yet polite note: this is your way of making a living, just as theirs is being a shoemaker/doctor/banker/plumber, etc"

So I did a bit of research when my daughter called a Pro Photographer who charged her $ xxxx for a 2 - hour family photography session. Now let me tell you straight away, that I am a very honest Amateur Photographer and a retired Advisor in the largest conglomerate in the world. So I used my monthly salary to arrive at the cost for 2 - hours + 2 hours commuting time, Total 4 - hours labor cost for this Pro Photographer. Took into account cost for another + 2 hours of PP + miscellaneous time spent at the studio. I added equipment cost + depreciation, amortized over 2.5 years - Mac laptop + Software Cost + camera + lens + lights + reflectors + other accessories + insurance on equipment used etc. I then added 50% profit.

What this Pro Photographer charged was way over what I calculated. On top of it he turned down our request very curtly to try just one more angle and one more short, saying he had other clients waiting for him. He knew very well that I was a pretty good photographer with gear to match his own.

Hey Folks, you conclude honestly from the topic of this post.

Regards.

[MarkJerling]

What was his hourly rate?

[SyncGuy]

My honest take?

If you can't accept it, don't and just walk away.. No offense but what's the point of this post to begin with?

Similarly, why do people pay such a high price for a certain sports shoes when it's an open secret that the cost price to produce one is like US$1/pair because it's by cheap labour in a 3rd world country?
Why does that brand charge so much more when it's already an open secret?

From your given scenario in assessing that the pro photog is over-charging, what if you flip the coin and charge much lower in comparison to yours? Will there be complaints about such people spoiling their own market? (it's already happening...)
There's no end to it..

To be honest my friend, everybody is an artist in their own right and everybody leads their life in their own way.
Live and let go... Just walk away if it doesn't suit you. Similarly like how I don't stand in front of the Hermes boutique and cry foul when they imprinted their brand name on a normal "Alibaba" bag and relabel it as the coolest shopping bag for the upmarket crowd.

This thread can be closed...

[bm75]

I think fares varies from country to country. Here, for example, Euro 1500 would be the fare for a complete wedding portfolio from a good professional. If you want something different than a pro work, i.e. something completely "artistic" this means you have to negotiate your needs so, there's no fare for that, the artist would do his price. Perhaps you'll spend more, perhaps less. Depends on the final product and the artist you choose. the problem, as said, is that too many people are convinced that a friend with a camera (sometimes with just an iphone) can substitute a real and skilled pro photographer for , i.e. , a wedding. Personally, as a non-pro as I am, I will NEVER take the risk to be the one and only photographer for a spouse.What if something goes wrong? serious people negotiate prices only if the artist/pro is proposing an unrealistic fare (as you supposed, if I've understood right). On the other hand, it happened to me to contract a pro for a ceremony , pay the fare, and then realize that some of my photos were better (from a familiar point of view), than those from the pro, simply because he didn't find the soul of the subject.

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Last edited by bm75; 01-27-2016 at 03:40 AM.

[forest_bear59]

If he is such an exceptional good photographer that he can demand such high prices it's up to you if you book him.


It's all about offer and demand ...

[john.margetts]

My mother had a story at her colleague's expense. She had complained about the very high bill for a minor repair to her car. When the revised bill arrived it read: "for removing annoying rattle, 2.00. For knowing how to remove annoying rattle, 198.00"

[Rondec]

I'm not sure if the title of the thread matches your opening post. It seems as though you are upset at how much a photographer that you booked charged -- I assume knowing ahead of time what he charged. What a photographer charges depends highly on where they live, their portfolio, and their experience far more than their gear. If his prices are too high and he doesn't deliver good results or service, then people won't book him. Its a big world and there are a lot of different options when it comes to getting a family photo taken.

More on the thread title, I think there are lots of people out there who do value photography and are willing to pay for it -- mainly for things like portrait sessions, or wedding pictures. What I think a lot of photographers are upset about is their inability to use the internet to make money. Places like 500px seem to indicate that you can sell your images through them, but in the end, the internet, since the days of Napster, is more a place to rip things off than to pay for something. I don't think this is likely to change. In my opinion, you can use the internet -- via a blog, facebook, or a cool website -- to sell your brand and enhance your image as a photographer, but in the end, you need to make connections in the real world in order to book sessions and make things happen.

Just a final note: photographers tend to increase their prices over time. Each one has a certain busyness level that they want to maintain, but not exceed and if you are too busy, the answer is raising prices to the point that your schedule is full, but not overflowing. And of course, by doing this, you often work less hard and bring in the same amount of money. Obviously if you raise your prices too much, no one will book you and you will make no money, so that's a fine line to walk.

[Digitalis]

The instant consumers develop the arrogance to think for one moment they could purchase the best equipment to compensate for their lack of skills that take years to learn, and develop a trained photographic eye in less than a few weeks to produce the work with the same consistent level of quality of a paid professional. People like this do exist: In the photography industry we call them shooting stars, as they burn themselves to cinders almost as quickly as they start...and are never heard from again. To really have a passion for photography as an art form requires more than just equipment, more than talent - it requires a lot of grit and tenacity.

What this Pro Photographer charged was way over what I calculated

you forgot the cost of print production - which can be very costly indeed.

[monochrome]

What gives you the idea 50% is an appropriate margin over the cost you calculated?

[Theov39]

Your comparison of an employee (you) and a self-employed business person (him) is simply invalid.

There are so many other factors at play here that it is simply impossible to make a valid comparison. For example, did you take into account his need for superannuation just like you get a pension? Is your last salary point even a valid basis for the comparison ....and so it goes on....

Also, the point you make about your photographic gear matching his is completely irrelevant. You are not HIRING his equipment on a per hour basis, you are paying for his expertise and, in this case, his reputation.

But more to the point, IF he is a high in demand photographer, as you suggest, then none of those factors count anyway.

Why do super models get $20,000 a day or Nicole Kidman 20 million per film? Because they can!

[UserAccessDenied]

two other possibilities to throw out there...
This Pro Photog could have gone to school for his art, and I'll be the first to preach that student loans are one legitimate reason to charge $$$$.

If you take into account his time learning his form and the cost of educating himself (whether self taught or university, regardless), perhaps the cost would make more sense?

Also just to reiterate, this is a form of art. I don't agree with many modern art forms that say a canvas with an odd assortment of paint thrown at it is worth $100,000 but who's to say I or the artist is wrong?

Everything has a price; but it's only worth what someone will pay for it.


If you want to watch a great film on modern art put under the microscope, check out "Exit Through the Gift Shop"

[BrianR]

Were you happy with the results from the photographer you hired for the price you paid?

If yes, consider hiring him in the future.

If no, look for someone else next time (bonus points for politely explaining to the photographer what you were dissatisfied with).

Either way, tell your friends.

[ppohja]

In business, price is set due to value, not due to the expense spent in producing it. This explains both parts of the OP's situation.

[Wolfeye]

Your post title and subsequent discussion are not connected. If you're unhappy with what someone charges, you walk away.

OTOH photography as a profession is in decline due to the fact that digital photography has allowed trial and error learning of photography to replace traditional learning in the film era. Twenty five years ago you needed to know what you were doing. Now, people can take endless shots and view them instantly to get the results they want. There's no longer any skill required. Skills that took a master photographer years to acquire in the film age can now be learned in a matter of days or hours. Even beyond that, digital quality and ease has put acceptable results within the reach of anyone. Not world-class art, mind you, but most of the population wouldn't know a good photograph from a bad one. As long as its in focus and properly exposed, they're happy.

[nanhi]

Thanks for all the interesting posts. Let me clarify some of your queries:-
a) This is not my topic. Rather a mail which arrived in my Inbox from PhotopraphyTalk.
b) I mentioned that the Subject Line was not very appropriate to the gripe PhotographyTalk mentions in the write up.
c) I gave PhotographyTalk's write up as a brief in " ..... ".
d) Honestly I have no gripe. It was a price my daughter paid in San Mateo California.
e) She did not pay by the hour to the Pro Photographer. Rather it was one fixed price for the family photography session which included sending her the pictures by email.
She would have to pay separately for each print ordered in sizes she wanted.
She did not even know how much time the Photographer would spend at her home. As timed by me he spent 2 - hours.
f) Honestly I do not know the hourly rate for a Pro Photographer. So I used mine, knowing - rather vaguely though - that an Advisor's salary in the world's largest conglomerate would be
much higher than a Photographers. Please forgive me for using this as a a starting hourly rate.
g) Why Profit as 50%? I used the average Industry standard. I am aware that it can also be 100% or more for certain very dangerous professions.
h) Was I happy - actually my daughter - with the the results from this Photographer. Well I saw the photos sent to us on the email Link. They were over blown, lacked clarity with some kind of washed out colors. I had to spend time with Lightroom to correct the "awful" photos.
i) Folks please see my costing details, where almost everything is factored in. As a post graduate Engineer, "Costing" is one of the skills we learn. i have worked with the World Bank and awarded so many Global Contracts that costing comes naturally to me.
j) I am aware that many Photographs from the Pro have sold for $$$$$ as priceless Art forms.
k) And I do not hate Pro Photographers. On the other hand I love them. My Nephew is a Pro Photographer specializing in Weddings. I have a niece who is a Pro for photographing Babies and Children.
l) I simply wanted to share this topic with you all and see what comments, views and opinions pop up.

Vow, am I sweating. Please don't take this as a personal attack on anyone. I must with all humility use my motto "Help Ever, Hurt Never", as it stood the test of time and helped with my team from the US, UK, Scotland, South Africa, the Philippines, Pakistan, Egypt etc.

Ah Yes! On a lighter vein, please allow me to share a "Made In China" JOAK. So the world has slowed down producing babies, and many countries have negative growth. No problem. You want a brown baby, perhaps a yellow one, how about a white baby or a black one. Well, we will order them, cheap - Made In China.
That gives me an idea??? Why not order Pro Photographers - Cheap - Made In China??