Talk to me about fine art photography... Need some advice

alamo5000 · 05-30-2016, 09:12 AM

To add to that.... I recently came back from a 4 month long round the world photography trip.... (unfortunately it was cut short---which I am still bummed about)

But even on that going to those places I took some technically ok photos. Many were pretty fun, but overall I lost focus and just started having fun with it. So to me many of my pictures while good in some ways still don't rise to the level of my definition of 'fine art'....

Pretty much to get to what I am after the stars all have to align and things have to be done right. I mean seriously, one could theoretically get one or two shots in a year that are 'up there'... yes you might get 100 that are pretty good... but to really get there it needs to have a purpose and a meaning and to tell a story that the viewer gets.

About the only one that I got some sort of 'better' response from my Simon Cowell type judges was this:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1718/26074164366_eb73931b2c_h.jpg

(Click the link to open up the right size image---it resizes it here)...

So all in all you really need to define what you want to do.

**Miguel** · 05-30-2016, 09:56 AM

I have several friends who make their living as fine art photographers. It's not easy. I sell a few "art" prints yearly to individuals and institutions. It's not easy. It helps to find a mentor or two who is doing this. Also join the ASMP where you can start networking. Websites are required, but most of your real effort is from person to person marketing and connecting. The goal is to secure an agent who will represent you and sell you to people and institutions with the money to spend and the physical space to hang work. The latter has gotten tougher because a lot of older collectors (it seems like older folks appreciate seeing three dimensional art and paying money for it, while younger folks just like looking at screens) are running out of wall space.

I'd also work with your network and participate in portfolio reviews on a regular basis. This will up the quality of your images. It will also give you an idea about what is considered fine art content wise as there are trends and fads and looks that come and go and sometimes the shelf life of a style is fruit fly-ish.

Immediately I'd aim to get a show up somewhere to start building your book, making connections, and getting some press. Once booked you can create a social media plan, an online site, and press releases that can serve as a template for your future.

Hope this helps.

M

desertscape · 05-30-2016, 03:20 PM

Fine art photography is difficult to define. One thing I've noticed over the years about what makes a shot fine art is the eye of the shooter. Rarely will you see fine art shots produced by novices. It has been the realm of very experienced shooters, whether it be black and white portraits, still lifes, black and white seascapes, color landscapes etc. It could easily take 10 years of shooting to get to the point of having the eye to be able to produce these shots. Surely, a look at past masters' work gives one an idea of what's been done in the field. Larry Ulrich and David Muench come to mind for the landscape end of fine art. Fine art is a worthy goal for any shooter.

**clackers** · 05-30-2016, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by alamo5000

Yet another friend of mine... I went to Africa recently and I whipped out my 31mm and got what I thought was an awesome shot... really good exposure... good composition... it was of an African soldier carrying an AK47...the picture looked pretty good to me...so I sent it to him for a critique.

The response was a one liner. "Who is it and what is he doing?"

I responded, "I don't know, I just got the shot"

He responded back with one word, "Boring" as if to say, 'come back to me when you have something meaningful'.

Weirdly, if you'd told this guard to pretend he *didn't* get on with you - to put on an expression of disdainful compliance to somebody without a weapon - this guy would have acclaimed it as 'art'.

My take on Art is a little like that of Warhol or Banksy ... it seems to be whatever you can get away with.

**jatrax** · 05-30-2016, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by desertscape

Fine art photography is difficult to define. One thing I've noticed over the years about what makes a shot fine art is the eye of the shooter. Rarely will you see fine art shots produced by novices. It has been the realm of very experienced shooters, whether it be black and white portraits, still lifes, black and white seascapes, color landscapes etc. It could easily take 10 years of shooting to get to the point of having the eye to be able to produce these shots. Surely, a look at past masters' work gives one an idea of what's been done in the field. Larry Ulrich and David Muench come to mind for the landscape end of fine art. Fine art is a worthy goal for any shooter.

Would agree with that. It isn't something you just grab a camera and do. (Well not me anyway). Learning to take technically good pictures is step one. Then taking well composed, interesting pictures. Then finding that extra something that takes it beyond a well focused, well exposed, well composed, interesting photo to whatever 'fine art' is. It is a journey and studying masters and artists of other disciplines will help. You can be a great photographer without being an artist. Being an artist is more about vision than technical correctness, though that helps. Some of the best 'fine art' photographers I know are actually rather lousy photographers if you pixel peep their work. But the image doesn't have to be perfect to be good art.

alamo5000 · 05-30-2016, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by clackers

Weirdly, if you'd told this guard to pretend he *didn't* get on with you - to put on an expression of disdainful compliance to somebody without a weapon - this guy would have acclaimed it as 'art'.

My take on Art is a little like that of Warhol or Banksy ... it seems to be whatever you can get away with.

I don't really think that is what would have been said... that one particular guy is a grizzled old war time photographer among other things... and he would have probably kicked my @ss for doing something stupid...

What he was looking for was something BEYOND the image...He wanted STORY... he wanted something more than just an image. That is just his style...

But then I asked another person...completely independent... and that was their question too.

If I had taken a portrait like that of a rebel warlord leader it would take a good image from good to great. It would make it relevant.

Those guys though cross over between war reporting and other things all the time. They are not at all your typical 'where is my starbucks! artist types'...

Regardless of what pose the guy was in or what he was doing... he had no significant story behind him. Had it been another person done exactly the same way.... I could have gotten that shot in major publications without any problem.

That's the thing with fine art photography... this stuff all crosses over from area to area... there are not definitive lines marking everything off...

Case and point is Steve McCurry's Afghan girl... it wasn't originally shot as art... it was straight up reportage...but later on... he sold a print for a couple hundred grand to an art collector...

**clackers** · 05-30-2016, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by alamo5000

Case and point is Steve McCurry's Afghan girl... it wasn't originally shot as art... it was straight up reportage...but later on... he sold a print for a couple hundred grand to an art collector...

Photojournalism purists would say that it was a posed shot ... undignified for the art.

Steve is really going through the wringer at the moment.

The hardliners have really got stuck in for revealed Photoshopping.

alamo5000 · 05-30-2016, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by clackers

Photojournalism purists would say that it was a posed shot ... undignified for the art.

Steve is really going through the wringer at the moment.

The hardliners have really got stuck in for revealed Photoshopping.

He is definitely in it for photoshopping for sure. But at the end of the day journalism is journalism... but art work... 'fine art' so to speak has a whole lot more leeway....

"Art" people can create their own world....

alamo5000 · 05-30-2016, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by clackers

Photojournalism purists would say that it was a posed shot ... undignified for the art.

"They" can say what they want.... but I dare them or anyone else on the planet to find a more iconic image... ever.

**Digitalis** · 05-30-2016, 08:37 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by MadMathMind

Flickr and Instagram are great.

I agree, 500px is also rather popular

Originally posted by MadMathMind

Facebook

My biggest issue with Facebook is Copyright. you'll get scumbags who will re-post your work - and even though you might just be doing work for the exposure it just reinforces the notion that anyones work is ripe for the taking regardless of copyright. Exposure doesn't take the pets for a walk, or fill up your bank account - avoid Facebook.

Murfy · 05-31-2016, 04:27 AM

I forgot to mention in my other post that there are a few good galleries around the country, dedicated to photography, that will print and frame your work (sometimes the print is a small fee, the framing is free) if you are accepted into shows. The gallery takes a small commission (most do anyway) but the chance to show work across the country without having to pay for shipping is nice. My cousin, who lives in another state, finally had the chance to see a few pieces of mine in person. I don't like to ship my work, I usually only show places I can drive to deliver. Those places also offer classes, workshops and discounts for photo trips, so definitely worth checking out. I have seen some amazing work in those gallery shows.

turboast4 · 05-31-2016, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by alamo5000

I don't mind writing here. It's all good information for discussion. It will though be a long post

Alamo5000--and everyone else--thanks for all the inputs. You've all given me some really good starting points. The career path for an engineer is usually pretty straight-forward. I think the photo majors at school get a lot more preparation for life after graduation, but I guess they assume that the minors aren't really going to be pursuing a career in photography so they forego a lot of those classes.

Thanks again for giving me a different perspective and for sharing your experiences.

Floggin Rodger · 06-24-2016, 04:22 PM

Google your local and state arts councils. They typically list recent Calls For Artists to shows and exhibitions.

phat_bog · 06-24-2016, 05:02 PM

Hi there !

Well,

Truth is you're not the one deciding wether you're doing fine art photography, or not, even if you mark everywhere " i'm an artist ".
Nor your closest friends, nor the general public.

The art professionals, the artists, the gallerists, the collectors, the buyers and art public will decide for you.

In order for them to decide, you must show your work. With time, it may or not be remarked by these people, and also you can push your work to them.

Once you're on the market, if they decide to put you on, then you're doing fine art photography.

So, just don't be shy, but be generous, show your work, as generosity will always be appreciated by the public and it's one of the artists' greatest value. With time, the more people you'll reach, the more you can bring them as a "plus" in life, the more you'll go forward

philbaum · 07-11-2016, 03:13 PM

Don't quit your day job. I say that only half in jest.

i had a 33 year career as a mechanical engineer. Had some very good times, had some stressful times, but made it thru with a nice retirement. Retired in 2003, bought a DSLR in 2007, started selling pictures in 2009 - just because i always wanted to for some reason. Never had any formal art education, but i got obsessive about photography, visiting galleries in different cities, reading stuff, attending a club, selling thru all kinds of shops, including a wine shop - which was interesting for the people i met. Presently i'm the only fine art photographer in a 20 artist cooperative gallery. But I live in a relatively small industrial town and high ticket sales are more the exception than the rule.

In the last 10 months, my total sales are higher than any of the painters/sculptors in the gallery, even though many have formal art education and their artistic talent, in my estimation, exceeds my own. I do know about 8 professional photographers in the area that are mostly retired except for 3 individuals.

I enjoy the gallery i'm working at, i enjoy talking with customers and other members about art - and seeing what they are working on, but i don't think fine art pays off well in America - don't know about other countries. Most professional photographers in my area are making a living at commercial photography or more commonly, doing weddings and a variety of portraits. I frankly wouldn't advise any young people to go into this field as a primary career. Perhaps in big cities, the art experience pays off better than in my area - hope so for all the deserving artists out there.

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05-30-2016, 09:12 AM	#16
alamo5000 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 2,962	To add to that.... I recently came back from a 4 month long round the world photography trip.... (unfortunately it was cut short---which I am still bummed about) But even on that going to those places I took some technically ok photos. Many were pretty fun, but overall I lost focus and just started having fun with it. So to me many of my pictures while good in some ways still don't rise to the level of my definition of 'fine art'.... Pretty much to get to what I am after the stars all have to align and things have to be done right. I mean seriously, one could theoretically get one or two shots in a year that are 'up there'... yes you might get 100 that are pretty good... but to really get there it needs to have a purpose and a meaning and to tell a story that the viewer gets. About the only one that I got some sort of 'better' response from my Simon Cowell type judges was this: https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1718/26074164366_eb73931b2c_h.jpg (Click the link to open up the right size image---it resizes it here)... So all in all you really need to define what you want to do.

05-30-2016, 09:56 AM	#17
Miguel Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Near Seattle Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,743	I have several friends who make their living as fine art photographers. It's not easy. I sell a few "art" prints yearly to individuals and institutions. It's not easy. It helps to find a mentor or two who is doing this. Also join the ASMP where you can start networking. Websites are required, but most of your real effort is from person to person marketing and connecting. The goal is to secure an agent who will represent you and sell you to people and institutions with the money to spend and the physical space to hang work. The latter has gotten tougher because a lot of older collectors (it seems like older folks appreciate seeing three dimensional art and paying money for it, while younger folks just like looking at screens) are running out of wall space. I'd also work with your network and participate in portfolio reviews on a regular basis. This will up the quality of your images. It will also give you an idea about what is considered fine art content wise as there are trends and fads and looks that come and go and sometimes the shelf life of a style is fruit fly-ish. Immediately I'd aim to get a show up somewhere to start building your book, making connections, and getting some press. Once booked you can create a social media plan, an online site, and press releases that can serve as a template for your future. Hope this helps. M

05-30-2016, 03:20 PM	#18
desertscape Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,272	Fine art photography is difficult to define. One thing I've noticed over the years about what makes a shot fine art is the eye of the shooter. Rarely will you see fine art shots produced by novices. It has been the realm of very experienced shooters, whether it be black and white portraits, still lifes, black and white seascapes, color landscapes etc. It could easily take 10 years of shooting to get to the point of having the eye to be able to produce these shots. Surely, a look at past masters' work gives one an idea of what's been done in the field. Larry Ulrich and David Muench come to mind for the landscape end of fine art. Fine art is a worthy goal for any shooter.

05-30-2016, 04:36 PM	#19
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by alamo5000 Yet another friend of mine... I went to Africa recently and I whipped out my 31mm and got what I thought was an awesome shot... really good exposure... good composition... it was of an African soldier carrying an AK47...the picture looked pretty good to me...so I sent it to him for a critique. The response was a one liner. "Who is it and what is he doing?" I responded, "I don't know, I just got the shot" He responded back with one word, "Boring" as if to say, 'come back to me when you have something meaningful'. Weirdly, if you'd told this guard to pretend he didn't get on with you - to put on an expression of disdainful compliance to somebody without a weapon - this guy would have acclaimed it as 'art'. My take on Art is a little like that of Warhol or Banksy ... it seems to be whatever you can get away with.

05-30-2016, 05:19 PM	#20
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by desertscape Fine art photography is difficult to define. One thing I've noticed over the years about what makes a shot fine art is the eye of the shooter. Rarely will you see fine art shots produced by novices. It has been the realm of very experienced shooters, whether it be black and white portraits, still lifes, black and white seascapes, color landscapes etc. It could easily take 10 years of shooting to get to the point of having the eye to be able to produce these shots. Surely, a look at past masters' work gives one an idea of what's been done in the field. Larry Ulrich and David Muench come to mind for the landscape end of fine art. Fine art is a worthy goal for any shooter. Would agree with that. It isn't something you just grab a camera and do. (Well not me anyway). Learning to take technically good pictures is step one. Then taking well composed, interesting pictures. Then finding that extra something that takes it beyond a well focused, well exposed, well composed, interesting photo to whatever 'fine art' is. It is a journey and studying masters and artists of other disciplines will help. You can be a great photographer without being an artist. Being an artist is more about vision than technical correctness, though that helps. Some of the best 'fine art' photographers I know are actually rather lousy photographers if you pixel peep their work. But the image doesn't have to be perfect to be good art.

05-30-2016, 06:40 PM	#21
alamo5000 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 2,962	Originally posted by clackers Weirdly, if you'd told this guard to pretend he didn't get on with you - to put on an expression of disdainful compliance to somebody without a weapon - this guy would have acclaimed it as 'art'. My take on Art is a little like that of Warhol or Banksy ... it seems to be whatever you can get away with. I don't really think that is what would have been said... that one particular guy is a grizzled old war time photographer among other things... and he would have probably kicked my @ss for doing something stupid... What he was looking for was something BEYOND the image...He wanted STORY... he wanted something more than just an image. That is just his style... But then I asked another person...completely independent... and that was their question too. If I had taken a portrait like that of a rebel warlord leader it would take a good image from good to great. It would make it relevant. Those guys though cross over between war reporting and other things all the time. They are not at all your typical 'where is my starbucks! artist types'... Regardless of what pose the guy was in or what he was doing... he had no significant story behind him. Had it been another person done exactly the same way.... I could have gotten that shot in major publications without any problem. That's the thing with fine art photography... this stuff all crosses over from area to area... there are not definitive lines marking everything off... Case and point is Steve McCurry's Afghan girl... it wasn't originally shot as art... it was straight up reportage...but later on... he sold a print for a couple hundred grand to an art collector...

05-30-2016, 07:21 PM	#22
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by alamo5000 Case and point is Steve McCurry's Afghan girl... it wasn't originally shot as art... it was straight up reportage...but later on... he sold a print for a couple hundred grand to an art collector... Photojournalism purists would say that it was a posed shot ... undignified for the art. Steve is really going through the wringer at the moment. The hardliners have really got stuck in for revealed Photoshopping.

05-30-2016, 08:22 PM	#23
alamo5000 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 2,962	Originally posted by clackers Photojournalism purists would say that it was a posed shot ... undignified for the art. Steve is really going through the wringer at the moment. The hardliners have really got stuck in for revealed Photoshopping. He is definitely in it for photoshopping for sure. But at the end of the day journalism is journalism... but art work... 'fine art' so to speak has a whole lot more leeway.... "Art" people can create their own world....

05-30-2016, 08:28 PM	#24
alamo5000 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 2,962	Originally posted by clackers Photojournalism purists would say that it was a posed shot ... undignified for the art. "They" can say what they want.... but I dare them or anyone else on the planet to find a more iconic image... ever.

05-30-2016, 08:37 PM - 2 Likes	#25
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by MadMathMind Flickr and Instagram are great. I agree, 500px is also rather popular Originally posted by MadMathMind Facebook My biggest issue with Facebook is Copyright. you'll get scumbags who will re-post your work - and even though you might just be doing work for the exposure it just reinforces the notion that anyones work is ripe for the taking regardless of copyright. Exposure doesn't take the pets for a walk, or fill up your bank account - avoid Facebook.

05-31-2016, 04:27 AM	#26
Murfy Veteran Member Join Date: May 2014 Photos: Gallery Posts: 803	I forgot to mention in my other post that there are a few good galleries around the country, dedicated to photography, that will print and frame your work (sometimes the print is a small fee, the framing is free) if you are accepted into shows. The gallery takes a small commission (most do anyway) but the chance to show work across the country without having to pay for shipping is nice. My cousin, who lives in another state, finally had the chance to see a few pieces of mine in person. I don't like to ship my work, I usually only show places I can drive to deliver. Those places also offer classes, workshops and discounts for photo trips, so definitely worth checking out. I have seen some amazing work in those gallery shows.

05-31-2016, 04:24 PM	#27
turboast4 New Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 20 Original Poster	Originally posted by alamo5000 I don't mind writing here. It's all good information for discussion. It will though be a long post Alamo5000--and everyone else--thanks for all the inputs. You've all given me some really good starting points. The career path for an engineer is usually pretty straight-forward. I think the photo majors at school get a lot more preparation for life after graduation, but I guess they assume that the minors aren't really going to be pursuing a career in photography so they forego a lot of those classes. Thanks again for giving me a different perspective and for sharing your experiences.

06-24-2016, 04:22 PM	#28
Floggin Rodger Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Eastern NC Posts: 132	Google your local and state arts councils. They typically list recent Calls For Artists to shows and exhibitions.

06-24-2016, 05:02 PM	#29
phat_bog Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Paris Posts: 124	Hi there ! Well, Truth is you're not the one deciding wether you're doing fine art photography, or not, even if you mark everywhere " i'm an artist ". Nor your closest friends, nor the general public. The art professionals, the artists, the gallerists, the collectors, the buyers and art public will decide for you. In order for them to decide, you must show your work. With time, it may or not be remarked by these people, and also you can push your work to them. Once you're on the market, if they decide to put you on, then you're doing fine art photography. So, just don't be shy, but be generous, show your work, as generosity will always be appreciated by the public and it's one of the artists' greatest value. With time, the more people you'll reach, the more you can bring them as a "plus" in life, the more you'll go forward

07-11-2016, 03:13 PM	#30
philbaum Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Port Townsend, Washington State, USA Posts: 3,659	Don't quit your day job. I say that only half in jest. i had a 33 year career as a mechanical engineer. Had some very good times, had some stressful times, but made it thru with a nice retirement. Retired in 2003, bought a DSLR in 2007, started selling pictures in 2009 - just because i always wanted to for some reason. Never had any formal art education, but i got obsessive about photography, visiting galleries in different cities, reading stuff, attending a club, selling thru all kinds of shops, including a wine shop - which was interesting for the people i met. Presently i'm the only fine art photographer in a 20 artist cooperative gallery. But I live in a relatively small industrial town and high ticket sales are more the exception than the rule. In the last 10 months, my total sales are higher than any of the painters/sculptors in the gallery, even though many have formal art education and their artistic talent, in my estimation, exceeds my own. I do know about 8 professional photographers in the area that are mostly retired except for 3 individuals. I enjoy the gallery i'm working at, i enjoy talking with customers and other members about art - and seeing what they are working on, but i don't think fine art pays off well in America - don't know about other countries. Most professional photographers in my area are making a living at commercial photography or more commonly, doing weddings and a variety of portraits. I frankly wouldn't advise any young people to go into this field as a primary career. Perhaps in big cities, the art experience pays off better than in my area - hope so for all the deserving artists out there.