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08-18-2016, 07:02 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by pghwarrior23 Quote
Interesting thoughts shared and I am glad to see it created some conversation.

While Nikon might not be a good example or model of success (they have been hemorrhaging money afterall), they are able to make a 4 tier system of FF cameras work rather successfully. So why is it absurd to consider the possibility of a lower end K-1 or something above it? Nikon currently has a D610, D750, D810 and D5. The K-1 has been compared to the D810 in that lineup. to me there seems to be a lot of bells and whistles in the K-1 that many will never need, use or want making it possible to add another camera in the lineup with minimal cost to create it.

I hear the comment a lot on here "well then why don't you just go buy Canikon"...because I have been using Pentax for years now, like the interface, love the lenses (when SDM is not failing), and like many of the features. Why is it crazy to want a camera on par with other brands but with the pluses of Pentax?

Of course the one thing that is particularly lacking in Pentax IMO is a quality repair service in the USA. As SDM has failed in 2 of my DA* lenses now and has me nervous about the third, and with limited options in 3rd party lenses currently to replace them, it leaves with few options other than sending to Japan for repair. It does provide hesitation in investing $1800 into a FF camera as well as $1200-2000 per lens.
It's absurd mainly because Pentax has said they won't do it.

From their standpoint, they are pushing capacity making 7000 K-1s a month and releasing something else that would be competitive with the K-1 -- either higher or lower probably would just divide those buying full frame Pentax cameras, not add new users.

Of course eventually Pentax will release another full frame camera that will succeed the K-1 and likely be above it in terms of specifications at which point they will likely keep the K-1 around, but drop its price a little. It is just my calculation that that won't come for two or two and half more years from now.

We are significantly more likely to see a K3 II sequel with 4K video than we are to see a cheap K-1 that comes in at a 1200 dollars price tag.

08-18-2016, 07:48 AM   #47
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If Ricoh can sell a 36mp K-1 at $1,800, for $1,400 they can certainly make a more modest 24mp camera, like the D610 with the Pentax essentials of SR, WR and so on. Essentially, if the K-1 is the equivalent of the K-3, it would be the equivalent of the K-70.

But why would they do it? I think a very good reason is that they need to build a market for their FF lenses. You can see already that the K-1 has immediately created an expectation that Pentax will replicate the huge lens line-up of Canon and Nikon. If they need to develop all those lenses, they need to get as many people into the system as possible to create a market for them, and they can't do that with just one model, no matter how good it is.

With regard to production capacity, I'm not sure where the information comes from about the number of cameras Ricoh can produce. When Ricoh launches a camera, they say how many they plan to make per month initially, but that does not necessarily mean that it is their maximum capacity and that they can't produce more in response to demand. The fact that the K-1 has been in short supply could be to do with exceptional pent-up demand and supply trouble with the sensor. Anyway, if they really are planning to be a player and production is the problem, they simply have to invest and expand their capacity. It must be part of the plan,

So I think a second FF model is a matter of when and not if. My guess would be the first half of next year, with some more affordable type variable aperture or f4 zooms and f1.8 primes to go with it.
08-18-2016, 08:35 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I have no idea what you're talking about.
I didn't see anything special on the canonusa.com page.
(...)
Canon EOS 5D Mark IV + EF 16-35mm f/2.8L III USM + EF 24-105mm f/4L IS II USM + a few goodies. Announcement on August 25th, 2016.
08-18-2016, 08:40 AM   #49
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In one word, updates...
In a recessing market.

08-18-2016, 08:47 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
Anyway, if they really are planning to be a player and production is the problem, they simply have to invest and expand their capacity. It must be part of the plan,
The boom and bust variation of Pentax is Doomed?
08-18-2016, 08:47 AM - 1 Like   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pixelhdr Quote
A super APS-C camera to draw from customers from other brands will only be attractive if the lens line up supports it. At this time, I think the answer is probably NO.
I keep reading this time and again. Pentax has all the lenses in their lineup covering the necessary and important FOVs. Anything beyond the existing is either not needed or arent meant for serious picture taking any way. And then there is a plethora of legacy items on ebay to choose from. I never get this when people complaint about availability of the lenses. What FOVs do we need to take good pictures? Their FF line up ranges from 15-450 and a set of primes still in production. Their APSc lineup also covers 15-450 range and possibly richer. SO not sure what is Pentax missing in their lens line up really.
08-18-2016, 09:00 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by pghwarrior23 Quote
I feel like I don't see any good rumors on here anymore of upcoming gear from Pentax. So in light of the big announcements coming out of Canon today.....
QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Canon EOS 5D Mark IV + EF 16-35mm f/2.8L III USM + EF 24-105mm f/4L IS II USM + a few goodies. Announcement on August 25th, 2016.
So, it turns out that we're talking about an announcement rumored to occur eight days after the "today" mentioned in the post that started this thread; that explains why I couldn't find the announcement.

08-18-2016, 09:00 AM - 2 Likes   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
If Ricoh can sell a 36mp K-1 at $1,800, for $1,400 they can certainly make a more modest 24mp camera
Can they?
One very important thing: the K-1 is not a $1800 camera. The K-1 is a camera designed to sell at $1800 (€2,000, etc.) in certain volumes (no more than 7,000 units per month), for a certain time, with an estimated downwards price and volume evolution - and make a profit for the company.
What's the required volume for a $1400 MSRP camera? A good guess is similar to the K-1's (though lower margin products tend to need higher volumes). Where would they get this volume? From the K-1's? That's no good, it might make the K-1 from profitable into a money-losing product.
Products are not made in a vacuum; they're made to be sold, and make a profit. Making a competitor for the K-1, right now, could be the worst thing they could do. We are a limited resource.

My guess is that people saying they would only buy a cheaper Pentax FF DSLR wouldn't get such a $1400 camera; they would find something else to complain about - e.g. lenses. And people willing to buy (as opposed to just saying) either already have a K-1, or will have one.
As I said on another thread, perhaps the cheaper Pentax FF DSLR is the K-1, some 2 years since its launch. By the way, the D610's launch price was higher than the K-1's.
08-18-2016, 09:05 AM - 2 Likes   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by pghwarrior23 Quote
FF Stripped down K-1 - $1100 - Remove the flippy screen, remove wifi, remove 4k video, and give me a less expensive FF camera. Kind of the Nikon D810 vs D610 roadmap. Making this mirrorless would leap frog them past Fuji too!
Not happening. The K-1 is already priced quite aggressively at $1,800. Stripping it down and using a 24 MP sensor (or even making it mirrorless) won't save that much money.

QuoteOriginally posted by pghwarrior23 Quote
Super APS-C camera - $1,800 - now that Pentax is gaining the attention of serious professionals again (are they?), maybe a competitive sports camera that is smaller, lighter, cheaper and better weather sealed than other options on the market but with a huge buffer and frame rate would be interesting.
Not happening. Pentax's AF technology is not there yet (and won't be any time soon), and there's not enough lenses up to snuff for high-end action work in any case. Pentax's APS-C line-up is still better geared toward travel, nature, and landscape photography. The K-1 doesn't change that.

QuoteOriginally posted by pghwarrior23 Quote
Mirrorless APS-C camera - $1,100 - Something along the lines of the Sony A6000 with better lenses and a viewfinder.
Not happening. Would require new lenses. A K-mount mirrorless would make more sense --- but it's not clear there's really a market for such a camera.

QuoteOriginally posted by pghwarrior23 Quote
FF Lenses - I suspect Pentax will be releasing a slew of new FF lenses in the next year. Tons of primes especially. Maybe dusting off some legendary old glass with new nanocoatings and better, quieter AF motors. Some new lenses that are not as expensive as the FF options with revised SDM for APS-C would be nice too
I would expect to see most of the FF lenses on the roadmap along with a variable aperture wide-angle zoom and a variable aperture telephoto zoom (to pair with the DFA 28-105). With the possible exception of the FA Limiteds, we won't see any retreads of old legendary glass. Those were lenses designed for film. New lenses will all be designed for the demands of high resolution digital cameras.

QuoteOriginally posted by pghwarrior23 Quote
Will Sigma ever return to making K mount lenses again?
In the short term, no. Long term, maybe.

QuoteOriginally posted by pghwarrior23 Quote
Is the Pentax Q series dead? Upgrades coming? Something new in this lineup?
It's on life support. Probably won't make it.

QuoteOriginally posted by pghwarrior23 Quote
Will Pentax ever embrace the vintage history of the K1000 and retro styling that has made Fuji and Olympus popular?
No.

QuoteOriginally posted by pghwarrior23 Quote
What could Ricoh do to create a wow factor in the market to end run Canikon?
Develop the ability to make comparable cameras and lenses at a lower price point than canikon. This will take some time --- there's no quick fix.
08-18-2016, 09:05 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pixelhdr Quote
A super APS-C camera to draw from customers from other brands will only be attractive if the lens line up supports it. At this time, I think the answer is probably NO.
QuoteOriginally posted by shardulm Quote
I keep reading this time and again. Pentax has all the lenses in their lineup covering the necessary and important FOVs. Anything beyond the existing is either not needed or arent meant for serious picture taking any way. And then there is a plethora of legacy items on ebay to choose from. I never get this when people complaint about availability of the lenses. What FOVs do we need to take good pictures? Their FF line up ranges from 15-450 and a set of primes still in production. Their APSc lineup also covers 15-450 range and possibly richer. SO not sure what is Pentax missing in their lens line up really.
Although people here may love older screw-drive lenses, perhaps up-to-date lenses, with modern motors, etc, are needed to compete with Canon et al.

Assuming that the new 55-300mm PLM lens works out, updating lenses like the DA* 16-50 to use the same design would be a good start, so Pentax will give people one fewer thing to complain about or for Pentax to lose money on
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/10-pentax-slr-lens-discussion/327921-well...ad-enough.html

Last edited by reh321; 08-18-2016 at 09:46 AM. Reason: DA* 16-50 comment
08-18-2016, 10:14 AM - 1 Like   #56
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I totally disagree there not being a market for a K mount mirrorless. Their one and only foray was too weird for the market, if they put a normal camera I bet it would be well received.
08-18-2016, 10:22 AM   #57
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Again, asahi man emphatically states there is no second FF planned, neither above nor below the K-1. Pentax simply doesn't have the scale to support another. In effect Pentax has the FF market share of ONE MODEL from Nikon, so they produced a unique combination of features at an aggressive price.

Last edited by monochrome; 08-18-2016 at 01:27 PM.
08-18-2016, 10:25 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Although people here may love older screw-drive lenses, perhaps up-to-date lenses, with modern motors, etc, are needed to compete with Canon et al.
I believe Pentax was never aiming to compete with CanNikons. Isn't that evident yet? They hold their own in the DSLR market. Also I am pretty sure modern motors don't make good pictures. Its usually the photographer and then the light (or Vice Versa) and then the glass and then may be the camera back and then may be photoshop (LOL).

People who are complaining haven't bought into the system much and very likely won't as they don't quiet understand the Pentax offerings very well and their value proposition. They don't want to risk looking out of place by venturing into Pentax system as they are afraid falling out of the CanNikon race. Most CanNikon offerings don't understand the photographers and don't care to put Shutter, Aperture and ISO on dials and or at one hand operation for quick changes. Nikons consumer bodies pretty much requires you to dig into the menus to alter the ISO. Even the placement of dials suck. Whereas most Pentax bodies allow a combination (button + dial) which is waaaay easier than digging into the menus. Even Nikons pro FF bodies need buttons to adjust ISOs or requires the second hand to get to the ISO button (Look D810, ISO is on the left hand side). This is horrible in my opinion. Its infact a usability nightmare. I love the way Pentax keeps these three settings at one hand (<- This is in itself professional grade IMHO). Also that green button... man this thing is so well thought out its freaking unbelievable how ahead of the game Pentax is with the usability. The whiners don't go beyond AUTO mode and never will and will never experience the importance of button layouts and how superior they are or could be until they see and use Pentax bodies.

And using less temperamental motors is all they may need for their DA* lineups. Not much. PLM is a new technology they are introducing and is aiming video more than anything else. And whether it works out or not depends upon how many people use Pentax for videos. Also their introduction to the the C-AF in video on their K-70 is a clear march ahead in their video department. Its very early to call it a win but they are moving in that direction for sure by introducing the newer techs in a cost effective way.

Last edited by shardulm; 08-18-2016 at 10:28 AM. Reason: typos
08-18-2016, 10:31 AM   #59
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Competing with Canikon as in "product by product direct competition" is indeed out of the question. However, Pentax is competing on the same market (DSLR) with Canon and Nikon. They do need lenses with quiet motors, suitable for AF-C.
It might not make better composed pictures, but it's what the market requires.

DC motors are fine. Pentax introduced them in 2010, unfortunately by then Hoya was stopping new lens introductions to a grinding halt.
08-18-2016, 10:37 AM - 2 Likes   #60
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K-1 will be replaced by K-1's upgrade model in 2018-2019. K-1 will became cheaper. But don't expect any K-1's higher or K-1's lower models in the nearest future.
New DFA lenses are much more important.

Last edited by ogl; 08-18-2016 at 10:44 AM.
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