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01-29-2017, 11:04 AM   #61
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I think "in wrong way"? You don't get a vote in determining that.
The 11-point AF system might be dropped after one or two AF generations, or - quite likely - it might be kept as a cheap solution for entry level cameras. Anyway, if you want an AF system with more points, you have to pay for it.

The 7D Mark II was introduced for 1800$ in 2014, and it's not D500-level, both in terms of coverage and AF points count (though it's doing quite well). I presume that a Pentax camera suitable for introducing a more advanced AF would (initially) cost more than 1500$ (APS-C).
Guess who on this forum is paying for the development of such a camera

01-29-2017, 11:06 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
There are 7D Mark II for 1350 USD with 65 AF points (all cross-type) and Canon 80D for 1100 USD with 45 AF points (all cross-type) + Dual AF system My facts
Pentax K3 is close to 7D AF perf. + better sensor, price $800. My facts.

The K3 can track almost as well as a 7D. K3 was design based on 7D specifications. It does not have 65 points, but AF is not only about the number of points, proof is Nikon have less AF points and less cross type than Canon , but Nikon tracks better by using the AE sensor , like Pentax say they are doing.

People start with a bold idea in mind that Pentax AF is inferior to others. Due to psychology of the brain, the more you think this way, the more this ideas reinforced itself in your brain. I've used the K3 on DFA150450 for BiF with 100% keepers. Please stop repeating the same stuff over and over again, and get yourself a used K3 with a decent DFA lens (either the 70-200 or the 150-450). If you don't have the money for the higher end Pentax gear, you won't have the money for the Canon or Nikon gear.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 01-29-2017 at 11:14 AM.
01-29-2017, 11:14 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Pentax K3 is close to 7D AF perf. + better sensor, price $800. My facts.
No. 65 and 33 are not close. And K-3 has no any advanced AF in LV.
I think you never use tracking with 7D MKII. K-3 is far behind.

I can consider your answer just as trolling and mockery.

One more time for whom stay at armoured train - it's not thread about my problems with Pentax AF or your satisfaction of Pentax AF with slow zoom (150-450 is really slow).

Read my first post and try to understand the main sense.

Last edited by ogl; 01-29-2017 at 11:21 AM.
01-29-2017, 11:18 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
No. Not even close. 65 and 33 are not close. )))
I told you, it's not all about AF point. The AE sensor has 86K points. Nikon use the PDAF point to estimate the Z position and they use the AE sensor to locate the X,Y position of the subject in order to select the closest AF point that measures the depth. So, you could have only a few PDAF points and the rest of the AF task being done by the AE sensor and the CPU, of course more processing power used in this case.

I guess , there is a chance that Ricoh imaging will anyway update their AF module , after the fiasco of the K1 AF reviewed by DPReview. But to know when they will do it, only Ricoh imaging knows.

01-29-2017, 11:24 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I think "in wrong way"? You don't get a vote in determining that.
The 11-point AF system might be dropped after one or two AF generations

11 AF points system is 14 years old.
01-29-2017, 11:33 AM - 2 Likes   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
11 AF points system is 14 years old.
Yeah, that's what you have.

---------- Post added 29-01-17 at 19:35 ----------

You can't compare your 14 years old Pentax AF with a 2 years old Canon AF.
01-29-2017, 11:39 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
11 AF points system is 14 years old.
Same for Nikon's. So what?
01-29-2017, 11:41 AM - 1 Like   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
You think in wrong way. Don't compare marketing moves of different companies.
There's nothing to prevent Ricoh to drop 11 AF points system.

---------- Post added 01-29-2017 at 10:45 AM ----------



There are 7D Mark II for 1350 USD with 65 AF points (all cross-type) and Canon 80D for 1100 USD with 45 AF points (all cross-type) + Dual AF system

My facts
Yes, but pentax has also benefit in the other area, which you fail to see it. Anyway, about new Pentax AF system, nobody knows it in this forum. As I said before, even if they have new AF system in their new DSLR body, I am not really sure you are going to buy it. You will just be dissappointed, either by the performance or price, or both.

01-29-2017, 11:45 AM   #69
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Biz-engineer has explained that PDAF can be augmented by other means (AE). Does anyone have a clear explanation why more af points are better? Is it just more data to process leading to higher resolution of the movement?

As far as I can tell the Pentax af issues aren't as much about tracking across the frame as with tracking depth? Personally do very little tracking but I've noticed some issues when the subject is coming towards the camera. Shooting limiteds and plastics I don't expect it to work though.

So what I'm wondering is when you maintain the center af point over the subject how would more points help? It should be the readout speed of the point and how well the system (camera and lens) smoothes out this data and responds that is the issue?
01-29-2017, 12:02 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
So what I'm wondering is when you maintain the center af point over the subject how would more points help? It should be the readout speed of the point and how well the system (camera and lens) smoothes out this data and responds that is the issue?
The problem of AF on moving subject is that you first need to be able to keep the subject framed correctly, then you can hope to have AF tracking correctly and then you can hope to have the photo taken at the right moment (face expression etc). I've be shooting ice skating (low light conditions), in the last three years, and it's far from being only a matter of AF performance. Even if I was having a D500 with 140 points, if the subject is in the corner of the frame and in focus, that is useless, that photo will be deleted. So, the first difficulty is not due to AF , but is due to the photographer being able to frame correctly a dynamic subject. Subject motion also means that shutter speed should be substantial to avoid motion blur, and on APSC that means ISO between 1600 and 6400 where noise becomes visible and dynamic range drops. So, ideally you'd need: a full frame sensor (to cope with low light conditions); a high burst rate (to get the right shot at the right moment, smile , wahtever), a high performance AF, and a 300 f2.8 lens. All in all, that's a $10K+ system. For correct tracking fast moving sport shots such as skiing, the camera is mounted on a tracking robot there are robot and so, the subject stays precisely in the frame, that the kind of solution that professional use for paid assignments. The AF performance plays a role of less than 20%.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 01-29-2017 at 12:10 PM.
01-29-2017, 12:45 PM   #71
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I would like to be positive...this place is so good and I don't like personal attacks of any kind.My considerations:
1 - there's no perfect af for all the subjects , sometimes a single center point is much more then sufficient. (Canon eos 6d has few points but the central one goes down to -3) it was released later than k5, if I'm right.People do not regret its af.
2 - If people have professional needs or do perform some particular type of photography (i.e: sports), well...if people is paid to do that why not using the best performance tool?
3 - If I have some needs, I just try to find a solution for them.
4 - The judgement upon a camera is personal, because there are no just AF specs. But yes, tech details are important for special purposes.But, speaking only of myself, I'm not the kind of person who likes to linger things just waiting for something better or different to come.

I'm not a professional photogr. I have k5 + consumer grade AF lenses+ some MF primes. I really love my k5. But I have also a 2008-old Nikon d300 with 51AF point system ( multi-cam 3500 , first version) coupled with sigma 70-200 hsm. I's the AF really good?? Yes. But I consider it just a "special pupose camera" for sports in daylight (d300 is noisy also at 200 iso), BW, some particular smooth and pastel color tones I can't register with k5 and lenses(perhaps my foult). but , from my esperience, also that 51 AF points system sometimes is wrong, typically in landscape scenes with a complicated pattern. I do not regret my k5 nor the d300, they're different cameras, I just consider the k5 a much more capable camera. And to speak of NIkon: their 39 point system (i.e.: D 7000) is not just on par with the multicam 3500 , so that Nikon put the Multicam 3500 in D7100 and D7200 semi pro). in Prague this summer I just used k5+smc 17-70 and shoot about 2500 frames.I missed the focus sometimes but in those typical situation I know it lacks so it was my foult not to anticipate camera behaviour.

5 - for the OP: Are you paid for your photography? I mean: DO you REALLY need a state-of-the-art 2800 euro camera - yes 2800 because for pro a backup body ia s lifesaver - (Nikon/Canon, you choose) with 4000 Euro of lenses ( es: Nikon 24-70 +70-200 VR2) ? If yes, well BUY IT Immediately because your work is your money. Are you cheating Pentax? No, in any way. Your needs come frst and , as being me a professional in other matter I tell you taht i simply use the best affordable equipment for my needs. You won't load 30 tons of payload in a Fiat Panda but I woudn't use the truck for going on the mall(obviously an exxaggeration, i'm not in any way assuming or supposing that Fiat or Pentax are bad brands, not I'm a lorry drver)

Enjoy your Pentax gear and enjoy the pictures you take, this is all that matters!
Best regards.

Matteo
01-29-2017, 01:59 PM - 3 Likes   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
my dream is simple - never back or front focus with my camera and lenses.
That's another discussion entirely. While there are solutions for that in PDAF, LV or mirrorless solves that problem best. But then CDAF has problems of it's own compared to PDAF - hence no sports cameras use it.

Ricoh isn't ignoring AF, one has to recognise that it's been making solid, incremental progress. The step from K-5 to K-3 PDAF was significant (in LV too - it's MUCH faster in K-3 than K-5, and much faster than Nikon LV ). And K-1 is faster than K-3, 645Z AF was better than 645D etc. The K-3 III and K-1 successor will have faster & better AF too. Maybe not D500/D5 tier yet, but heading in that direction I'm sure.
01-29-2017, 02:49 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
Biz-engineer has explained that PDAF can be augmented by other means (AE). Does anyone have a clear explanation why more af points are better? Is it just more data to process leading to higher resolution of the movement?

As far as I can tell the Pentax af issues aren't as much about tracking across the frame as with tracking depth? Personally do very little tracking but I've noticed some issues when the subject is coming towards the camera. Shooting limiteds and plastics I don't expect it to work though.

So what I'm wondering is when you maintain the center af point over the subject how would more points help? It should be the readout speed of the point and how well the system (camera and lens) smoothes out this data and responds that is the issue?
In order to get sharp focus on a moving object, you have to have an accurate determination of how far the target is from the film plane at the moment the shutter opens and the exposure is made. Thus you must allow for that small dead time when the mirror is rising. You have to determine the current distance and the rate at which the distance between you and the object is changing, so the camera can set focus for the right distance when the shutter actually opens. The most complicated targets are the ones moving both towards or away AND across the field of view; for this you need to solve a trigonometric differential equation, and the more AF points you have, the more accurately you can determine the rate of shift between them and hence the angle-across rate needed to solve that equation accurately.
01-29-2017, 02:51 PM - 1 Like   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
11 AF points system is 14 years old.
I see we have the same path - K200D, KIIs (I have a K5 as well), I notice great improvement from K200D to K5, some improvement in K5 to K5IIs.
I hold on buying K3 and K3II because I see no great improvement from K5IIs (K3 high iso is even worse than K5IIs).

I added K1 recently and notice the AF improve a lot from K5IIs.
Back lit shots that usually struggle (keep hunting) with K5IIs (shot at f8 and still miss focus) but spot on with K1 at f1.8, f2 (FA ltd lenses).

for what I am shooting, I am happy with K1 AF improvements.

I am also optimistic about their future AF improvement.

try K1, I think you will be happy with it's AF.
01-29-2017, 03:25 PM - 1 Like   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
That's another discussion entirely. While there are solutions for that in PDAF, LV or mirrorless solves that problem best. But then CDAF has problems of it's own compared to PDAF - hence no sports cameras use it.

Ricoh isn't ignoring AF, one has to recognise that it's been making solid, incremental progress. The step from K-5 to K-3 PDAF was significant (in LV too - it's MUCH faster in K-3 than K-5, and much faster than Nikon LV ). And K-1 is faster than K-3, 645Z AF was better than 645D etc. The K-3 III and K-1 successor will have faster & better AF too. Maybe not D500/D5 tier yet, but heading in that direction I'm sure.
What I could remember quickly:
  • improving low light sensitivity (to -3EV, which AFAIK other brands didn't have at the time)
  • new AF generation based on a different sensor,
    + allowing (depending on the AF optics) for 27 to 33 AF points
    + with subject tracking capabilities (linked to a new 86,000 segments metering system)
    + iteratively improved through new algorithms
  • new DC lenses with faster AF
  • a new AF motor (PLM) which is really fast
  • CDAF improvements (mentioned)
  • first experiments with on-sensor PDAF
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