Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Closed Thread
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
02-06-2017, 12:50 PM - 2 Likes   #46
Veteran Member
CarlJF's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Quebec City
Posts: 1,185
QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
(If I walk into any muslim restaurant, I can hardly demand pork; or beef in Hindu restaurant, right?)
The analogy would rather be that you go in a muslim restaurant but they refused to serve you because you're not muslim...

02-06-2017, 01:03 PM   #47
Veteran Member
E-man's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 678
While I don't agree with the photographer at all, I also have to look at the situation through somewhat pragmatic eyes. How much harm was really done? Are there not other photographers who would willingly do the job and do it well? The guy's an ass and his reputation will suffer as the word gets out, although he will doubtless also pick up some business from prospective clients who share his benighted views. That's just the way of the world.

This really isn't a life and death situation. My dad told me once about a black housekeeper his family employed when he was growing up, who was involved in a serious automobile accident. This happened in the "Jim Crow" south of the 1940s-1950s, where racial segregation and discrimination was both customary and completely legal. An ambulance arrived on the scene, but unfortunately for her, it was from a "white" ambulance company. They refused to transport her, but as a "courtesy," called the "black" ambulance company on their way back to their station. By the time the "black" ambulance company arrived, she had bled to death. That sort of discrimination is unconscionable and today, those ambulance drivers would doubtless have faced manslaughter charges, but it is in an entirely different category from a wedding photographer.

On the flip side of the coin, should a prospective customer be able to compel an unwilling vendor to provide goods or services? As others have pointed out, doing so would virtually guarantee shoddy goods or services.
02-06-2017, 01:05 PM   #48
Pentaxian
zzeitg's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South Bohemia
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 4,014
QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
There are laws in place that prevent restaurants and other businesses from putting up signs like, "no colored people" and "blacks must sit at the back of the bus". Having racist feelings is not illegal. Using those racist feelings as a filter with which to engage in the public sphere is.

You are more than welcome to have your own feeling, but the moment you step outside of your home and enter the public sphere, particularly as a business, your feelings are placed within the context of your society and the laws that govern that society.

Well, I'm not a lawyer. And if you say there's such law, I won't argue. My argumentation is more about common sense. And if I would be a gay and a photographer would figure that he does not feel comfortable about it, I'd simply accept it. Because we are both equal. My rights should not oppress his right to refuse to provide this service.
02-06-2017, 01:08 PM - 3 Likes   #49
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
RobA_Oz's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,182
This discussion could be an exemplar for some of the exchanges I see on Facebook. It's considered, polite, informative and thought-provoking – something that rarely happens in social media, and, sadly, something that's in decline in the general broadcast media.

02-06-2017, 01:14 PM   #50
Pentaxian
johnyates's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,345
QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
My rights should not oppress his right to refuse to provide this service.
You are saying that you have the right not to be discriminated against and, simultaneously he has the right to discriminate. How can you hold these two opposing views?
02-06-2017, 01:19 PM   #51
Veteran Member
CarlJF's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Quebec City
Posts: 1,185
QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
Well, I'm not a lawyer. And if you say there's such law, I won't argue. My argumentation is more about common sense. And if I would be a gay and a photographer would figure that he does not feel comfortable about it, I'd simply accept it. Because we are both equal. My rights should not oppress his right to refuse to provide this service.
It's the way the guy should have handled the situation. If he would have exlained that he has never done that before and thus couldn't guarantee the same high quality services than what you see on the website, and, by the way, here's the name of a good photographer who's work is more in line with what you're lookinbg for, bla, bla bla, there will be no story. But this isn't what happened...
02-06-2017, 01:22 PM   #52
Veteran Member
Wired's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Edmonton, AB
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,519
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
i think that a lot of people might instinctively support the photographer not because they think he is right.

I support the photographer in the sense that his religious beliefs matter. Just as much as the rights of the same sexy couple matter.

I do not doubt that the couple has felt insulted and shamed. At the same time does that give them the right to shame the photographer?

To me the question becomes: Do religious rights and freedoms outweigh those of a minority, in this case the LGBQT.



Now here is a situation that reflects me: I have not been asked to shoot what my friend calls a "brown" wedding. I'm not sure which Eastern religion he practices, so I apologize if my summary comes off wrong, I lack education on the matter. The two of us have talked about the ritual and how it's a 4 day party. He has shown me images from other weddings of the same kind and they are very beautiful. In fact it looks amazing! It would be an honor to shoot it. On the flip side, I have no idea what it takes to shoot one of these weddings, it sounds like a crazy, insane amount of work that frankly is overwhelming. As a photographer who has only worked with "traditional western" weddings (see weddings as they take place on TV in western dramas for example like Grey's Anatomy) I would decline taking on a wedding like this because... frankly, it scares me and makes me uncomfortable. Not religion, not the culture... the sheer size of it scares me. I would second shoot one in a heartbeat, in fact I'd do the second shoot at a reduced rate because of the amount I would learn about these events. But I would not take one on solo.

So, if I did get an inquiry to shoot one of these 4 day events....and I respectfully declined stating that I believe a cultural wedding such as this is outside of my comfort zone for skill and experience.... could that be turned around on me to mark me as an insensitive biggot? When in reality, it's just outside of my skill and comfort level at this time in my career?


Last edited by Wired; 02-06-2017 at 01:31 PM.
02-06-2017, 01:26 PM - 3 Likes   #53
Veteran Member
pete-tarmigan's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Conception Bay South, New-fun-land
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,272
QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
So, if I did get an inquiry to shoot one of these 4 day events....and I respectfully declined stating that I believe a cultural wedding such as this is outside of my comfort zone for skill and experience.... could that be turned around on me to mark me as an insensitive biggot? When in reality, it's just outside of my skill and comfort level at this time in my career?
It might be better to say, and probably truthfully, that you wouldn't be able to provide a realistic quote, not having had experience with that format of wedding.
02-06-2017, 01:27 PM - 1 Like   #54
Pentaxian
zzeitg's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South Bohemia
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 4,014
QuoteOriginally posted by johnyates Quote
You are saying that you have the right not to be discriminated against and, simultaneously he has the right to discriminate. How can you hold these two opposing views?

You can't change peoples' feelings and preferences. People are not the same, like it or not. The photographer has right to choose his customers. The gay couple has right to choose their photographer. If they like each other, they can make a deal. That's freedom.


You can force the photographer to shoot people he does not like. You can even close his business entirely. But the freedom will be gone.
02-06-2017, 01:32 PM - 3 Likes   #55
Veteran Member
CarlJF's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Quebec City
Posts: 1,185
QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
To me the question becomes: Do religious rights and freedoms outweigh those of a minority, in this case the LGBQT.
But a "business" isn't a person and thus doesn't have any religious rights. Here, the couple weren't dealing with a person, they were dealing with a business. If the belief of an employee isn't compatible with its business, he's free to work elsewhere, in a business more in line with its religion.
02-06-2017, 01:35 PM   #56
Veteran Member
Wired's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Edmonton, AB
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,519
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by CarlJF Quote
But a "business" isn't a person and thus doesn't have any religious rights. Here, the couple weren't dealing with a person, they were dealing with a business. If the belief of an employee isn't compatible with its business, he's free to work elsewhere, in a business more in line with its religion.
In this case, 100%.


As the owner of your own business where you are the sole employee... does that change anything?


asking to further the discussion.



The answer should be no in my opinion.

Last edited by Wired; 02-06-2017 at 01:41 PM.
02-06-2017, 01:43 PM - 3 Likes   #57
Pentaxian
johnyates's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,345
I'm all in favour of freedom of religion. But even better is freedom FROM religion.
02-06-2017, 01:47 PM   #58
Senior Member




Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 108
QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
My rights should not oppress his right to refuse to provide this service.
No one has an unfettered right to refuse to provide a service. Legally it will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but in many places it is illegal to refuse service to people in a discriminatory way. Imagine if the one hotel in a small town refused to let gay couples stay there, or all the restaurants refused to let them eat there, or landlords refused to rent to them. Imagine that it wasn't gay couples but interracial couples, or Jews, or anyone who doesn't follow exactly the same religion as you. It would essentially mean that anyone different was ostracized, or essentially banished from a community.

As I see it, by offering a service to the public, and getting a business license, you are committing to offer your services to everyone equally. You can refuse jobs on certain grounds--it's too big, too far away, conflicts with my schedule, etc.--but not others. You can refuse service to individuals if they are problematic clients--someone who hasn't paid their bills in the past would be a good example, or someone who comes into your store drunk--but not to entire groups of people.

That said, I think the photographer in a case like this has the right to say that he or she does not like gay marriage. Heck, the photographer could say, "Okay, I'll shoot your wedding, but all the proceeds will go to an organization that opposes gay marriage." That's their right. And the client would probably change their mind. But to refuse service outright is discriminatory.
02-06-2017, 01:48 PM   #59
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
ffking's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Old South Wales
Posts: 6,029
QuoteOriginally posted by johnyates Quote
But even better is freedom FROM religion.
well, religion motivates a lot of people to do a lot of good things - it's when it motivates them to tell other people how to live their lives it becomes a problem - but that's a problem that's not unique to religion
02-06-2017, 01:50 PM   #60
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 27,603
I guess the question is one of someone being in a protected class. Certain classes in the US and I suppose in Canada are protected and you can't discriminate against them by law. On the other hand, if you are not in a protected class, you can be discriminated against without protection.

That said, if the photographer met with the couple and said that he didn't feel that his style of photography would work for them and gave them a suggestion of other photographers who would "fit better" then the whole situation might have been averted. The secondary question is how much of photography is art and how much is just a paycheck and how easy it is to force yourself to produce good images if you don't click with the couple in some way (not necessarily anything to do with sexual orientation).
Closed Thread

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
business, couple, date, engine, feb, food, freedom, guys, job, law, line, montreal photogrrapher, muslim, page, photo industry, photographer, photography, pig, pm, post, religion, respect, restaurant, sex, start, wedding, weddings
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How would you process this image to bring out the Milky way? bdery Digital Processing, Software, and Printing 21 02-12-2018 06:13 AM
Which lens would you take 2nd wedding shoot Xsalfior Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 13 02-04-2014 01:09 PM
What lenses would you use to shoot a wedding with the k-x? justtakingpics Pentax DSLR Discussion 31 03-16-2011 08:02 PM
tricky wedding situation...how would you handle this? jshurak Photographic Technique 8 05-15-2008 07:04 PM
How would you like to buy this view :-)) dudlew Post Your Photos! 15 09-19-2007 03:54 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:32 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top