[G.E.Zekai]

Hey guys. Currently, I am in a life-changing decision-making progress and wanted to ask my fellow Pentaxians about their ideas. Like all of my random threats, this will be long, sad and full of grammar horrors.


Basically, I am 26 years old. Currently living in N. Cyprus. Paying bills with photography, mostly weddings and some portraiture work. I do have a moderately OK work, nothing groundbreaking. I also have 2 dogs and a cat and almost finished paying my new car. Here comes the catch, I have to go army because of conscription . Due to personal reasons I don't want to do that and decided to leave the country for good.


My sister lives in the UK and I used to live in the UK as well during my first Ba degree. I decided moving up to her place might be a good start. But I am not sure if I can find any photography work when I migrate to the UK. When I used to work in the UK my work wasn't too bad but since I moved to Cyprus it hasn't really improved and all of my peers at that time are leagues ahead. And if I were to migrate I am not going to have most of my equipment (lights, stands, larger probs.. etc ), the only person I know in the city will be my sister who hasn't even moved to Nottingham yet.

On the other hand, my application to Nottingham Trent University - Ma in Commercial Photography got accepted. Looks like a fantastic school with lots of good facilities and connections but school costs 6500 pounds itself.

I never took any "formal" photographic education before so not sure what to expect. And not sure how much it will help me. that 6500 can be spent on food, rent and equipment. Also, the school will take a considerable amount of time so can't work full time.


Just asking people what were their experiences in photographic higher education ? is it worth it?

And what would you do if you were in my shoes? This is likely the biggest decision I am had in my life so far, to leave my country forever. And it is scary...

[Winder]

That is a tough question and it depends a lot on you. It could be a great opportunity, but you have to make it a great opportunity. You say your work hasn't improved? Why not? There are a lot of online photography classes that cost a lot less and you might want to take some of them first to see how you do. There is so much free content and course offering in photography that its hard to recommend paying for it. The advantages are small. If you are not self-motivated then the degree won't help you, and if you are self-motivated then you can have a successful career without the degree. You will make some great contacts in the program and learn an awful lot, but there is nothing that they can teach you that you can't learn somewhere else. The program just makes it easier and more structured..... and more expensive.

[ffking]

I think one of the big advantages of doing courses (speaking as one who regrets that he didn't when he was younger) is the confidence they give you in knowing that there is nothing more you need to know, and the knowledge of how to run a photography business - which is something very different from being a good photographer. Add to that the contacts made and the resources available to you, and the money might well be considered well spent. BUT -you need a business plan - you need to seriously commit yourself to earning the money the course costs back over a specified time frame from your photography. If it's what you really want, you'll find a way, but it takes commitment. What's your passport situation, by the way? Currently there is no problem, and being here as a student shouldnt be a problem, but after Brexit you might find yourself needing UK citizenship if you want to stay, and that isn't cheap either.

[G.E.Zekai]

That is a tough question and it depends a lot on you. It could be a great opportunity, but you have to make it a great opportunity. You say your work hasn't improved? Why not? There are a lot of online photography classes that cost a lot less and you might want to take some of them first to see how you do. There is so much free content and course offering in photography that its hard to recommend paying for it. The advantages are small. If you are not self-motivated then the degree won't help you, and if you are self-motivated then you can have a successful career without the degree. You will make some great contacts in the program and learn an awful lot, but there is nothing that they can teach you that you can't learn somewhere else. The program just makes it easier and more structured..... and more expensive.

I had more freedom when i was in UK, Cyprus environment is very restrictive and clients tend to want similar stuff making me repetitive. The main reason i am want to study is networking. School environment possesses tremendous opportunities and i might get to meet with industry leading photographers during my studies. "But very expensive"

[MarkJerling]

And what would you do if you were in my shoes? This is likely the biggest decision I am had in my life so far, to leave my country forever. And it is scary...

Well, only you can make this decision.

But seeing as you're asking....
If I was you, I'd go to the army. You seem to be doing OK with photography in Cyprus. Your pets won't like the move. I've experienced conscription first hand and it's really not a bad experience, in my view. A degree is not going to make you a better or worse photographer.

But let me ask you this: Which place, Cyprus, or the UK, will give you better quality of life? That's the place you want to be living in.

[Alex645]

Change is scary, but what would regret more? Not taking the chance with the unknown or not taking the chance for an undesirable known?

What you get out of your MA at NTU is up to you. Benefits of formal education include access to equipment and studios, learning from others including your prof, assistants, and classmates, getting critiques, opportunities in teaching, and most importantly, networking and developing a relationship and reputation that will lead to job opportunities.

To some degree (no pun intended), a self-starter would consider school a waste of time and money, but for many of us, it helps us to not reinvent the wheel but to build our knowledge by learning what has been established before us.

Many research universities are really set up for graduate students, whereas technical colleges are more vocation oriented from the start. After I got my BA in film from UCLA, I never thought Iʻd want to become a teacher one day, but by my early 30ʻs, I found that I loved teaching (art and photography) and just doing my photography as a side. It wasnʻt until my early 50ʻs that I realized I wanted to learn more about how to teach better, so I got my MA in art education from Boston U.

Honestly my initial motivation was to increase my salary on the pay scale with the MA, but in retrospect, I learned a lot that I use everyday in my teaching and photography.

Education (especially in the US) is not cheap, and paying tuition is painful. But as an investment in my overall career, income, and abilities, I have no regrets and financially it paid for itself in less than 3 years. With that said, starting over again anywhere is tough and there are no guarantees other than your persistence, resilience, hard work, and maybe a little luck.

Do you need to get an MA and pay 6500 pounds for a future as a photographer? Absolutely not. My own life was a hybrid of formal and on-the-job learning. What does your gut say if you had to make a decision tomorrow morning? I also have dreams that often guide me to my fears and passions. Listen to them.

[G.E.Zekai]

I think one of the big advantages of doing courses (speaking as one who regrets that he didn't when he was younger) is the confidence they give you in knowing that there is nothing more you need to know, and the knowledge of how to run a photography business - which is something very different from being a good photographer. Add to that the contacts made and the resources available to you, and the money might well be considered well spent. BUT -you need a business plan - you need to seriously commit yourself to earning the money the course costs back over a specified time frame from your photography. If it's what you really want, you'll find a way, but it takes commitment. What's your passport situation, by the way? Currently there is no problem, and being here as a student shouldnt be a problem, but after Brexit, you might find yourself needing UK citizenship if you want to stay, and that isn't cheap either.

Brexit is making things much harder. Also from the looks of it, people got a bit more "nationalist". As an EU citizen, I can work there with no problems.


As we speak I am also filling applications for Aalto University at Finland and looking other opportunities in EU as a whole. But being in a non-English speaking country is a bit more scary than usual.

So far Finland has free schools, Autstria and Germany has very cheap ones (all of them top notch quality). But much harder to enter than UK ones and i am not sure about prospects of living there after graduation.

---------- Post added 02-26-17 at 03:44 PM ----------

Change is scary, but what would regret more? Not taking the chance with the unknown or not taking the chance for an undesirable known?

What you get out of your MA at NTU is up to you. Benefits of formal education include access to equipment and studios, learning from others including your prof, assistants, and classmates, getting critiques, opportunities in teaching, and most importantly, networking and developing a relationship and reputation that will lead to job opportunities.

To some degree (no pun intended), a self-starter would consider school a waste of time and money, but for many of us, it helps us to not reinvent the wheel but to build our knowledge by learning what has been established before us.

Many research universities are really set up for graduate students, whereas technical colleges are more vocation oriented from the start. After I got my BA in film from UCLA, I never thought Iʻd want to become a teacher one day, but by my early 30ʻs, I found that I loved teaching (art and photography) and just doing my photography as a side. It wasnʻt until my early 50ʻs that I realized I wanted to learn more about how to teach better, so I got my MA in art education from Boston U.

Honestly my initial motivation was to increase my salary on the pay scale with the MA, but in retrospect, I learned a lot that I use everyday in my teaching and photography.

Education (especially in the US) is not cheap, and paying tuition is painful. But as an investment in my overall career, income, and abilities, I have no regrets and financially it paid for itself in less than 3 years. With that said, starting over again anywhere is tough and there are no guarantees other than your persistence, resilience, hard work, and maybe a little luck.

Do you need to get an MA and pay 6500 pounds for a future as a photographer? Absolutely not. My own life was a hybrid of formal and on-the-job learning. What does your gut say if you had to make a decision tomorrow morning? I also have dreams that often guide me to my fears and passions. Listen to them.

Beautiful words, and thank you for the comment. I also do love teaching. Had thought photography on small scale and I have been a tennis coach for last 8 years.

If I were to stay in Cyprus I do have a shot becoming a junior instructor in a local university, which I was a research assistant last year, they offered me a position with an acceptable salary if I finish my conscription. But students' and school's attitude towards photography is very bad and I know in a couple of years I am going to feel "empty". As much as i love N. Cyprus this is not a country i wish to live rest of my life and work. Demand, respect and quality in/to visual arts are very bad.

As i mentioned above i am also looking other EU countries who offers cheaper/free education. However i am not sure if going to Finland/Germany/Austria will make me an Exotic photographer of just a foreigner. (And nationalism is kind of rising fast in EU).

And for people suggesting conscription, its a complicated issue. But to summarise: During the separation of Cyprus and N. Cyprus a big portion of my family were not accepted/kicked from N. Cyprus due to politics. My grandfather was in concentration camp for years, his brothers murdered and surviving members lived under constant abuse. So i don't really feel like serving this country.

---------- Post added 02-26-17 at 03:46 PM ----------

Well, only you can make this decision.


But let me ask you this: Which place, Cyprus, or the UK, will give you better quality of life? That's the place you want to be living in.

This is not even a competetion Turkish Republic of North Cyprus is the most comfortable and best "non-existing" country ever

---

Last edited by G.E.Zekai; 02-26-2017 at 03:47 PM.

[Digitalis]

Here is my take as a formally educated photographer:

my application to Nottingham Trent University - Ma in Commercial Photography got accepted.

Congratulations on getting that far!

Looks like a fantastic school with lots of good facilities and connections but school costs 6500 pounds itself.

I never took any "formal" photographic education before so not sure what to expect. And not sure how much it will help me. that 6500 can be spent on food, rent and equipment. Also, the school will take a considerable amount of time so can't work full time.

You have to consider how you will recoup the costs of the course: 6500 GPB is roughly $10500 Australian dollars - which IMO for a MA is pretty damn cheap. I have worked in the UK (2007~2009) with well known photographers and at that point, I only held an undergraduate diploma in photography. Photography isn't a discipline where increased formal training always brings better results - teachers have the map built from their own personal experiences, and their job is to guide you with all the knowledge they have gleaned. But the world of photography has changed irreversibly and drastically over the past 15 years. You have to seriously weigh the pros and cons of undertaking such a course and your ability to invest time into it.

Just asking people what were their experiences in photographic higher education ? is it worth it?

There is no easy clear-cut yes/no answer to this: the worth of formal education is entirely up to you. There are a lot of things that cannot be taught that are crucial for success in commercial photography and many of them have little to do with pressing a shutter release: how to price your work, working with modelling agencies, writing photographic releases, handling commercial copyright negotiations & publication agreements, creating publicity for your own "brand", Time management and accounting are also crucial skills if you are self-employed and do not have the luxury of working for a studio.

The main reason i am want to study is networking.

You can do that through attending photographic masterclasses - which are a lot cheaper than a full course at a university. You can also look into applying for membership for the British institute for professional photography which can help you build a network and may provide discounts for photography courses that might suit you better, and help you find and attend masterclasses going on in you area.

School environment possesses tremendous opportunities and i might get to meet with industry leading photographers during my studies.

It depends upon how well funded the school is, how their studio spaces are equipped and maintained and the instructors..... and how they work with you.

[Floggin Rodger]

Once upon a time....
Who you lugged gear for was a far more important aspect of a photographer's education than if or where you attended school.

[E-man]

That is an extremely tough decision and only you can make the right one. The only insight I can offer is that here in the United States at least, an advanced degree (master's or doctorate) is mainly required in clinical fields or for teaching. This is especially true of creative fields. I have a good friend who has an MFA (master of fine arts) degree in acting. Her long term goal is to be a working actress but she mainly makes her living waiting tables in restaurants and does small acting parts as more of a side line. She readily admits success in her field, as well as other creative professions, can often hinge more on who you know--and more importantly, who knows you--than your educational credentials.

I used to work at a newspaper with a photographer whose formal training in photography was a two-year associate's degree from a local community college (vocational school) that he earned after he completed a four-year bachelor's degree in journalism. In the United States, an associate's degree is a lower rank than a bachelor's degree. After working a few years as a newspaper photographer, he landed a job as a photographer's assistant for a commercial photographer in Washington, D.C., which was a pretty menial position, mainly setting up equipment for location and studio shoots, loading cameras with film, and developing film and making contact prints after the shoots were over. But through this, he learned the business of commercial photography in a way he never could have in a classroom. His 'tuition' for this education was a few years of low pay and long hours. But today, some 30 years later, he is a successful commercial photographer in his own right.

I have an MS (master of science) degree in technical communication and until my present job as a college professor, none of the jobs I had held after graduate school required a master's degree. I could make more money if I had a doctorate, but at my age, the time and cost of obtaining one does not make any financial sense whatsoever. I just feel like I'm better off saving myself the headaches and expense higher education, including student loans I might not live long enough to pay off, and we won't even go into the rigors of writing and defending a dissertation. At this point in my life, I'd actually come out ahead settling for a slightly lesser salary and working hard to keep the position that I have.

I pray that you are lead toward the decision that is right for you.

[btnapa]

And what would you do if you were in my shoes?

If I shared my experiences and what advice I have given to a few people in your shoes, It would be enough material for a mini-series on TV!

For example, a dear friend's son wanted to go to a rather expensive but not so well known photography school on the East Coast of US. Mind you that the boy's mother and the grandfather were and are both well known and accomplished photographers. I had visited this college attending a seminar and later met a clueless graduate who came out of their program. I told the boy to get an education first and learn all the photography from his mom and grandpa. The entire family, mom and grandpa included, were upset with my advice. At this point in my life I had worked in the academic world for almost 20 years so I had a good idea what an education can and cannot do for someone. The "10-month "photography degree" was going to cost $20,000 in tuition plus another at least $20,000 in living expenses. The reality hit home when the admissions office of said college called and asked for a $10,000 or so dollars in non-refundable first tuition payment. The boy ended up going to the local community college in California and got an education for fraction of the cost of the photography degree. Meanwhile, he learned the craft of photography from him mom and grandpa. He is a successful photographer today.

I on the other hand, came to US to get an education. My family expected me to be a doctor or an engineer. I wanted to be a photographer. I even went and checked out a photography school to attend. Needless to say, family got its way. I tried to become an engineer but it was not for me. I instead went to an art school and pursued a career in graphic design with moments of photography thrown in the mix. I eventually got a degree in business. So officially I have a business degree but my entire career has been based on graphic design and photography work. Some 30 years later, I regret not having gone to photography school and not following my passion. After all these years of graphic design, various marketing executive positions, when asked what I do, my answer is that I am a photographer. That is what I enjoy and I am good at.

If your passion and I mean a burning passion is in photography, you will succeed. But if you are in it to make a living, there are lots of other disciplines that pay a lot more. I hope this helps you in some way.

[p38arover]

I've experienced conscription first hand and it's really not a bad experience, in my view.

That depends! My turn at conscription came up during the Vietnam War. Luckily I failed the medical.

[MarkJerling]

That depends! My turn at conscription came up during the Vietnam War. Luckily I failed the medical.

There's a luck. I did learn some pretty handy skills in the army. Granted, not much use now. Or ever hopefully.

[Kerrowdown]

My take would be... that you would already appear to have the technical side of photography under control, as your already doing it and paying your way.

I would look into an evening class or a correspondence course (leaving you time to continue your "day job" as a photographer) in marketing/business skills, which can so often make or break a good photographer.

This would also leave to the cash to re equip as necessary to the items left behind.

P.S. Does your army not have a photographic unit or requirements for photographers, where you could polish your skills still further? Good luck with whatever route you choose.

[G.E.Zekai]

My take would be... that you would already appear to have the technical side of photography under control, as your already doing it and paying your way.

I would look into an evening class or a correspondence course (leaving you time to continue your "day job" as a photographer) in marketing/business skills, which can so often make or break a good photographer.

This would also leave to the cash to re equip as necessary to the items left behind.

P.S. Does your army not have a photographic unit or requirements for photographers, where you could polish your skills still further? Good luck with whatever route you choose.

Ma seems really costly but taking individual courses seems to be coming pretty close. And somewhat Ma feels luxurious.

The Army does have a photographic unit, consist of 14 people. You work 1 day a week with 2 person shifts and rest of the time regular army training. The duties are: Follow the commander, take snaps of commander handshaking with officials. Print handshaking photos. Frame them. Give them to commander and handshaked person. (And this is 100% legit, i had a high ranked officer relative that asked all about this)