[BruceBanner]

Later this year I would like to be in a position to receive payments for photography work, thus far it has been hobby and community based work. However, already I am starting to feel as though I need to severely brush up on my legal knowledge (for working for various organizations in regards to ownership of the photos, permissions etc, all sorts of things).

For example, last week I had a free morning, and asked the School's Headmaster (of where my two kids attend) if they would like for me to take some pictures of the kids cross country event taking place that day. The reply of course was a deafening yes, so away I got snapping.
Now this was a community thing, no payment, no contracts, just verbal acknowledgement and the day went by great without a hitch. I have now post processed a heap of pictures and for the first time haven't actually uploaded them anywhere for public consumption, I feel the images should go back to the school and for them to decide where best to display the images. Fine. But it got me thinking, on the day, how did I differ really from any other parent snapping away (and recording video) with their smartphones? For sure I diverted my attention from directly snapping my own kids to shooting other kids running (and of course the first place finishers crossing the line). I imagine all those parents uploading to social media without a second thought...

Saying that, there was a verbal agreement between myself and the school that I would snap pics that day, but I'm not sure how other parents might feel that I have pictures of their kids on my HDD at home etc, who owns these pics? Do I process them, pass them on (to the school) and then delete? What about backups? I live in a bushfire pronezone area, physical backups are not a viable solution, I need to store in the cloud to be safer...

It then got me thinking about street photographers and the legalities of snapping strangers (without prior consent) etc and then onto actual contracts between my future self and businesses/clients, and the rights of ownership and all sorts of stuff, basically wondering if there is a general 'rule of thumb' that is already established in the professional photographers world..

I shall be working purely in Australia, so it's Australian law I'm needing specific guidance to, but I imagine it shouldn't differ much from UK and USA laws etc.

Having never completed a photography course I have no idea how to go about creating the client contract, just wondering if there are free resources out there that preexist. Before going mad on google I thought I would create this thread in case someone has 'been there, done that' and can help clear the fog that's in my brain

Cheers,

Bruce.

[Unregistered User 8]

A quick " GOOGLE " found these Bruce. Enjoy the reading mate.


Google

[BruceBanner]

A quick " GOOGLE " found these Bruce. Enjoy the reading mate.


Google

Yeh I had that info up for reading later in the week hehe, just wondered if anyone wanted to contribute their 2 cents with regards to the thread such as how they came up with their client contracts, if they were given a template during a paid course etc.

For example, I'm also a counselor and during the coursework were given template client-counsellor contracts/consent forms to be completed before payment and sessions begin. I haven't had to go googling for this info as my course provided it. I always like to google but also reach out to the specific community for feedback, I find it never hurts except when people like you provide a google link lol

[seventhdr]

Unless you have a contract with a client where it explicitly states that the client becomes the copyright owner, then the copyright of all photos rests with the photographer who took the photos.

With the school cross country photos, you own the copyright, because there was no agreement to transfer copyright to the school. When you give the best, and only the best, images to the school, you can include a letter giving them permission to use the images freely for school related promotion. I'd then tend to delete all the remaining images. (By "only the best" I mean that no second rate or good, or even very good images are given to the school. You want to develop a reputation for outstanding mages and giving clients images that are not outstanding paints you as a lesser photographer.)

They are your photos and where you store them is your concern. A backup to the cloud sounds a good idea as you live in a bush fire zone.

People on the street have no intrinsic privacy, because they are there for ALL to see. That being said publishing photos of people in compromising situations would not be respectful of people.

There is a need to obtain consent when people's likenesses are going to be used for advertising.

As a photographer you should at all times endevour to maintain the copyright of any photos that you take. In working for commercial clients you will have clauses in your agreement as to what the photographs can be used for, for example, an specific advertising campaign over a set time frame. Use of the photographs outside of this context is a breach of copyright and you are within your rights to goo back to the client to ask for an additional fee. If clients want to use the photographs for multiple advertising campaigns, or other uses, then they should expect to pay a higher fee for the photographs to reflect their extended use.

There will be at least one association of professional photographers in Australia. A Google search should find them. They should have advise for their members on these issues as well as having standard conditions of engagement contracts for professional photographers.

Regards

Chris

[promacjoe]

All good advice. Just remember when it comes to kids, the distribution of images can be a little tricky depending on your country. Make sure you cover your bases in this area as well. And when it comes to distribution of images for corporate use, make sure you have a Signed model release in hand. your best friend is Google in this case. But it also can be your worst enemy, Google covers every country, and what is Legal in the US or Canada may not be Legal in your country. Make sure you get advice from a legal source in your country.

[pathdoc]

Stand up for common sense. The best pics go to the school for their particular uses with your permission. The entirety of the images are yours (you need a portfolio, after all).

If some obstreperous parent gets shirty that their kid was photographed, point them at the headmaster.

[officiousbystander]

Do you have a working with children clearance?
About the Working With Children Check - NSW Office of the Children's Guardian
Just something else you need to think about.

[aslyfox]

Do not assume the laws in one country are the same as the laws in your country !

I urge you to consult an attorney, barrister, solicitor ( whatever the appropriate name may be ) before launching your professional career

Getting advice on the Internet from others or from Web sites should only be a starting point

I tend to avoid taking photos of children unless I know their families just to be on the safe side

It can make people nervous and can lead to difficulties even if no harm is intended

BTW in case it matters I have been a licensed attorney in the US since 1982

Good luck

[Wheatfield]

Legal advice garnered on internet forums is generally worth the paper it's written on. If you think you need legal advice, seek out the services of a lawyer in your jurisdiction.

[roberrl]

+1 to the minefield that is photographing children. And it's not all to do with legislation,
I'm aware that some parents at our village school are not happy for images of their kids to appear on the school web site

[bm75]

In Italy it's not prohibited the act of photographing in public places, also if you're photographing people in. But if people are your subject, it's better to advise them. they are free to refuse any use of the shoots. If those shots become public in any way or if you use them without permission, it's penalty law for privacy violation.

[sqrrl]

Things to keep in mind in the context of shooting the cross country - and this does not constitute legal advice at all.

If the school has contracted you to photograph the kids then you really need something on paper to this effect - even if you are working for free - this isn't anything to do with copyright but rather just to explain what you are doing to anybody who asks.

If the school has formally asked you to photograph the kids then the school is responsible for asking parents if photographs of their kids can be used on their website - that won't constitute permission for you to use those photos in a portfolio or online.

No matter what the law states, you really don't want to use photographs of other peoples kids online or for a portfolio without their permission in writing, it's too much of a minefield.

Laws about photography in public places are not clear cut - When you are in public in most places you do not have any reasonable expectation of privacy (cctv for instance) there are still people (like police, prison officers etc) and places (some police stations, military bases) where it is frowned upon or illegal, and this varies by state and country. That said, was the race actually on public land? They generally don't start or stop on public land - On private land you have a whole new set of rules.

I personally wouldn't bother for portfolio shots - you can still reference it, and point people at the schools website if you wish, if you do use shots then make sure you have permission from the right person in writing. (it's questionable whether portfolio shots constitutes 'for profit' so err on the side of caution)

Also
If you want to do people photography professionally in NSW then get a police check and a working with children check (construction site induction and related tickets are also useful if you want to do anything to do with industry) - it's not a big issue, and not too expensive (I have all of the above).

Beyond that, book time with a media lawyer, and a taxation accountant, these meetings will pay for themselves many times over.

Oh, and I am not a lawyer, so my advice merely constitutes an opinion, I have worked in schools in NSW & QLD though.

[Kerrowdown]

As many as others have said, engage the professional services of a practicing "legal beagle" for your part of the world.

[BruceBanner]

Apologies for the late reply, Mother's Day came and went and only now am I catching up with all this.

I was going to start multi-quoting people but then I realised I would actually be responding to everyone as you all gave such good and informative advice!

FWIW I am indeed up to date with my WWC (Working With Children) check and Police Check as our school is in the process of setting up an OOSH (Out Of School Hours) service and we're a little concerned over staffing issues so I have put myself fwd as available to work if push comes to shove (and those checks are mandatory).

It does indeed seem that Legal is the next step. I'm aware I'm drawing comparisons between my counselling qualification and affiliation with the ACA (Australian Counselling Association) but I wonder if perhaps I need to apply with the AIPP (Australian Institute of Professional Photographers) as a next sensible step?
A quick call to them and it's confirmed I would be eligible for 'Emerging Member' status, and indeed they seem to offer such things as Legal Advice, Contract form templates and recommended insurance providers (possibly discounted if membership obtained with the AIPP)...
But it is $250/yr, +$100 assessment fee (one off), and then if you progress to being an actual accredited AIPP member then it's even more at $550/yr!

With my other 'lifey' commitments I shan't have the time to take on many jobs even if offered! This is more of a part time business venture (at least for the foreseeable future), paying $350/550/yr is kinda going in the wrong direction! I shall be working in my local community, I'm not sure how important it would be to clients for me to have a membership with something like the AIPP, just to have insurance and a good legal contract I'm thinking would be enough and I should probably just start ringing around solicitors in my area see if they think they could draw up a contract etc...

Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on this?

Cheers (once again),

Brucey

[promacjoe]

As I and many others have indicated, getting Legal advice over the Internet, may be a good starting point, but it is not something you should rely on. You may or may not get good advice off of the Internet. Someone who seems to be knowledgeable on the legal subject, may get you in trouble. Leaving you with a hefty fine or even jail time. Take everything you see on the Internet with a healthy dose of skepticism. You need to check it out from sources within your area. You mentioned two good sources, The photographic Association and a local attorney/barrister. just make sure the legal advice comes from someone who has experience in that Subject.

here in the US, there are thousands of websites that intentionally misrepresent history, legal advice, politics, current events as well as product information. For instance, If you believe all the doom and gloom articles about Pentax, Nikon, and Canon for example, you wouldn't buy a camera. Companies as well as other organizations/people have an agenda. They may just want to sell you a product. Others want to mislead you for some reason. Don't fall into that trap.