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11-04-2017, 04:10 AM   #61
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Where is the value add of a local shop for buyers?

Prices are higher.
Options to try out equipment for free are much worse than online.
They do not provide any meaningful service.
They have a large history of trying to trick you into using manufacturer warranties where actually they themselves are legally obliged to handle product defects.

I won't miss a single brick and mortar camera store.

11-04-2017, 04:37 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Where is the value add of a local shop for buyers?

Prices are higher.
Options to try out equipment for free are much worse than online.
They do not provide any meaningful service.
They have a large history of trying to trick you into using manufacturer warranties where actually they themselves are legally obliged to handle product defects.

I won't miss a single brick and mortar camera store.
Whilst I choose to buy almost-exclusively online, I can see some benefits to the buyer from brick and mortar stores (I'm talking about specialist photographic shops - not the high street electrical box-shifters)...

You get to handle the equipment, including the actual unit you're purchasing to check that it's fully working, which avoids the inconvenience of having to package and return a defective unit and wait for the replacement (with the associated risks of items getting damaged or lost in transit). With used equipment, where you want to judge condition for yourself, I think that's particularly useful. Plus, you can - if you wish - get advice at the point of purchase (although said advice is always based on, and limited by, the retailer's knowledge, motivation and bias). Being able to build a relationship with a specific proprietor or sales assistant can potentially lead to better service when things go wrong.

Then, of course, there's the benefit to the local community... employment, tax income, retail unit income, enrichment of local services and adding to a town's character through retail variety, and the foot-fall that creates. Local brick and mortar stores help keep towns alive. For those reasons, I think it's nice to support local stores.

But, for me, it boils down to choice, availability and price. I want access to the products I'm interested in, and any money I may have wasn't easily come by (as is the case for most people) - so, if the price differential is significant, I have to weigh up whether the benefits are worth the extra expenditure. Usually, they're not. I simply can't justify spending significantly more locally if I get little or no additional benefit.
11-04-2017, 05:25 AM - 1 Like   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
. . . Then, of course, there's the benefit to the local community... employment, tax income, retail unit income, enrichment of local services and adding to a town's character through retail variety, and the foot-fall that creates. Local brick and mortar stores help keep towns alive. For those reasons, I think it's nice to support local stores.

But, for me, it boils down to choice, availability and price. I want access to the products I'm interested in, and any money I may have wasn't easily come by (as is the case for most people) - so, if the price differential is significant, I have to weigh up whether the benefits are worth the extra expenditure. Usually, they're not. I simply can't justify spending significantly more locally if I get little or no additional benefit.
for me you have hit the nail on the head.

my local brick and mortar store - Wolfe's Camera - has its own web site

offers in store services and products ( unfortunately not Pentax, I have look in the " trade in " pile ), classes, framing and photo production

and experience of the staff

the most valuable to me is the experience of their staff but I feel guilty using it because I spend, except for photo production very little there.
11-04-2017, 12:25 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by jacamar Quote
I provided the example of the new Henry's store in Mississauga. See above,.
My bad, I jumped to the Mississauga to Moose Jaw comparison and forgot that you had said Henry's in Mississauga was a new store.

I still get the local daily newspaper delivered to my door and I noticed an announcement of a new "luxury outfitters" store opening up in Saskatoon and how they are the only Bang & Olufsen distributor between Toronto and Vancouver. They are also selling Leica cameras. Same newspaper highlighted that while the local unemployment rate dropped 1.1 percent, the number of people working also dropped slightly, so Saskatoon isn't exactly a boomtown at the moment. I wish any new business well, but I will be very surprised if they are still operating a year from now and if they make it, it won't be because they sold out their Leica inventory. The people here that I know who might be in the market for a B&O stereo or a Leica camera will probably pick it up on a shopping trip to Vegas or NYC.

11-04-2017, 12:44 PM - 1 Like   #65
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We were impressed with Saskatoon when we visited this fall. The downtown is big with a lot of wide streets to fill but there were a lot of great restaurants that were quite busy, which signals some level of prosperity. I didn't see any camera shops but the McNally and Robinson bookstore (and café) was a lot of fun - a real bookstore, not the half hearted gift shops we have in Toronto now, They had a macro photography book I had been looking for but couldn't find in a brick and mortar store in Toronto. I hope your "luxury outfitter" sticks around.
11-06-2017, 12:15 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
You get to handle the equipment, including the actual unit you're purchasing to check that it's fully working, which avoids the inconvenience of having to package and return a defective unit and wait for the replacement (with the associated risks of items getting damaged or lost in transit).
In Germany I get to handle the actual unit I am going to buy online for free for 14 days at home outside and with all my lenses or cameras for free. If I try to do that in a B&M store they give me 5 minutes max in their dark store with a crappy test cam of their choice.
That is exactly why I buy photo stuff online: Much, much better try-before-you-buy option.

The transit risk is purely on the dealer here.
11-06-2017, 06:51 AM - 1 Like   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
In Germany I get to handle the actual unit I am going to buy online for free for 14 days at home outside and with all my lenses or cameras for free. The transit risk is purely on the dealer here.
So with other buyers doing the same, chances are that the camera you buy has been similarly handled by others, deranging the packaging and contents. I hope that you check that all the bits are present (hot shoe cover, little plugs in the flash socket, manual not dog-eared). As for the box itself - most people rip a box open, bending or tearing the tabs that "lock" it closed, but I like to keep the packaging pristine, not least to enhance its value when I sell it; I open a new box by "unlocking" the tabs with a blunt knife blade slid inside.

In olden days, before just-in-time became the retail model, the shop would let you handle a demo model but sell you one in an unopened box. At least that was the case for the popular models - the more professional models were sold to people who did not need a demo.

Delivery problems are my biggest reason against mail delivery. If the package is damaged you won't get anything back from the seller if the item inside is not damaged itself, they will say the packaging did its job. Also I don't particualrly want the "household management" to know how much I am spending on kit

Last edited by Lord Lucan; 11-06-2017 at 06:54 AM. Reason: afterthought
11-07-2017, 02:44 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Brooke Meyer Quote
Southeast Camera in Raleigh:
Matches B&H prices but I pay NC Sales Tax instead of lying on my return.
I can stop by and grab a roll of 53" seamless in an hour vs days to ship
12' ft wide seamless is $100 cheaper than truck freight charges. Anything over 9 ft is UPS / FedEx $$$pricey shipping.
They stand behind the used gear they sell. Like KEH and UsedPhotopro
I buy used lighting gear, like Buff Einstein's with confidence at realistic prices and get fair trade for an AB800
I buy used cameras like, one of my K3IIs, for a fair price and all the time I want without interruption to test drive with my lenses. Left the store and paid for it with a portrait session.
They will not buy and resell my really used 100k+ shutter actuation camera bodies.
Always lots of used gear at good prices.
Gaffers tape, 120 film, gels, etc today


I've used B&H, Adorama, KEH, UsedPhotoPro and high rated Japanese eBay resellers. No one is the universal answer. But there are also local people who know their stuff, are ethical and practical business folk.
I totally agree, nothing like a good local camera store.

Also with a b&m store you can get holds/layaway's. I've been to local stores numerous times and found a hard to find item I want to buy, but did not want to fork over the entire amount then. I can put down 10-20% and the store will hold the item for me, so no one else can buy it. I also get a 90 warranty on any used purchases and just have to return it to the store. No hassle at all and no return shipping.

Phil.

11-07-2017, 06:41 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by jacamar Quote
I provided the example of the new Henry's store in Mississauga. See above,.
That would be an outlier, nothing more.
11-08-2017, 09:23 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Where is the value add of a local shop for buyers?

Prices are higher.
Not necessarily.
QuoteQuote:
Options to try out equipment for free are much worse than online.
As we've seen, people who abuse that privilege get fired by the online retailer. If you see abusing a retailer as your right and tolerating the delays inherent in online shopping as acceptable, I just don't know what to say.
QuoteQuote:
They do not provide any meaningful service.
So you don't see try before you buy as a meaningful service? You don't see being able to handle the equipment prior to purchase as a meaningful service?
Again, I just don't have an answer for that, especially when you have indicated that it is important earlier with your "try it for free" comment.
QuoteQuote:
They have a large history of trying to trick you into using manufacturer warranties where actually they themselves are legally obliged to handle product defects.
That's a pretty wide brush that you are using to tar the retail sector with. Are you sure you are on the right side of the facts? My experience has been exactly the opposite of yours.
QuoteQuote:
I won't miss a single brick and mortar camera store.
Apparently you don't see building relationships as important. I've been a loyal customer to a particular camera shop for well in excess of 20 years, and a Pentax camera user for somewhat over 30 years. What that loyalty has bought me is getting to try out new equipment before it's released to the market, having equipment brought in "on spec" so that I can try it out as part of my purchasing decision (you would be using the "buy it and abuse the retailer" option), and I've had my local camera store go to bat for me several times with suppliers when my needs have exceeded normal customer service expectations.
None of this is available through mail order, it is only available when you build a face to face relationship with people, and give them the same respect you think you deserve. It's not what you get with a faceless web store whose customer relations only extends to a "thank you for your order" email.
11-10-2017, 01:10 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
As we've seen, people who abuse that privilege get fired by the online retailer. If you see abusing a retailer as your right and tolerating the delays inherent in online shopping as acceptable, I just don't know what to say.
It is not abuse, it is my full legal right. These laws are made explicitly to support B&M stores, btw. They simply level the playing field between B&M stores and online stores as online stores also have to handle opened boxes now. Else everyone would "try" in a local store and buy online.
The law states explicitly that it is my right to "check" the product at home and that this is the intention of the 14 day return right (no need to give reasons).

And if some idiot retailer believes he doesn't want to do business with me because he is too incompetent to live within the legal and market environment, they are as free as I am to pick another one.

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
So you don't see try before you buy as a meaningful service? You don't see being able to handle the equipment prior to purchase as a meaningful service?
I do. At home, in good light, 14 days. Not 5 minutes in a store.

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Apparently you don't see building relationships as important.
The investment on my side to "build a relationship" is not justified by benefits. If I see the dealer makes an above average tangible investment in me first, then I might consider this, but not before.
11-10-2017, 06:53 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
It is not abuse, it is my full legal right. These laws are made explicitly to support B&M stores, btw. They simply level the playing field between B&M stores and online stores as online stores also have to handle opened boxes now. Else everyone would "try" in a local store and buy online.
The law states explicitly that it is my right to "check" the product at home and that this is the intention of the 14 day return right (no need to give reasons).

And if some idiot retailer believes he doesn't want to do business with me because he is too incompetent to live within the legal and market environment, they are as free as I am to pick another one.
Those “idiot retailers” include Amazon and Bee and H Photo, both of whom have fired customers for abuse of privilege. It’s nice to know who you think are idiots.
QuoteQuote:



I do. At home, in good light, 14 days. Not 5 minutes in a store.
I don’t know what you are doing wrong. I’ve had my local store bring in product and let me take it out for several says without charging my credit card. Your “5 minutes” and my experience don’t jive. This is probably because I’ve made the effort to develop a relationship with my local store based on mutual respect.

Last edited by BigMackCam; 11-10-2017 at 08:28 AM. Reason: Bickering
11-10-2017, 07:48 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Those “idiot retailers” include Amazon and Bee and H Photo, both of whom have fired customers for abuse of privilege. It’s nice to know who you think are idiots.
That is your judgement.

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I don’t know what you are doing wrong. I’ve had my local store bring in product and let me take it out for several says without charging my credit card. Your “5 minutes” and my experience don’t jive. This is probably because I’ve made the effort to develop a relationship with my local store based on mutual respect.
And you can do that for way more than 14 days in all shops in your local country?

Last edited by BigMackCam; 11-10-2017 at 08:28 AM. Reason: Bickering
11-10-2017, 08:15 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
That is your judgement.


And you can do that for way more than 14 days in all shops in your local country?



Oh, you belong to the keepers of TRUTH. That explains your weakness in argueing your opinion case.
I am trying to not make personal attacks.
As i said, we are free to agree to disagree.

Last edited by BigMackCam; 11-10-2017 at 08:28 AM. Reason: Bickering
11-10-2017, 10:40 AM   #75
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Folks - let's please keep this constructive and avoid intentionally argumentative comments. Many thanks
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