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03-03-2018, 03:34 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
On the really wide lenses, AF doesn't seem so relevant.
No doubt, but they're what I have, so my comments reflect my currently-used gear. My only MF wide is a lovely old SMC Pentax 24/2.8, so I know what you mean, nonetheless.

PS – I was forgetting the Pentax-A 24-50 that I got bundled with my LX, and which I recently pulled out of retirement because my FA*28-70 was loading my back too much.

03-03-2018, 04:34 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asimov Quote
... The thing is that our first year teacher kept banging us over the head with arguments to go for a FF aka 35 mm DSLR.
... To him .... you'd definitely want a FF if you want to be taken seriously as a photographer.
QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Regarding being taken seriously, if he's talking about a camera used for professional work, he's probably right to an extent. Some people will only hire those with full frame cameras... which is silly, really, because the image quality of more recent APS-C cameras like your K-5 and even newer models is fantastic.
I don't believe the clients are thinking technically, in fact I don't suppose that eg most wedding couples have any interest or clue what your camera's brand, model, format or IQ is, or even what IQ means. They only see its size. It is more that they might wonder what they are really paying for if the hired photographer turns up with a camera that looks to them no different from their own at home, or from those that some of the guests are toting.

My father did weddings and he said that for ordering the people around for the formal sequence of photos, a heavy-looking tripod with a big camera (6x6) on top acted as his "staff of authority". Some professional film photographers on occasion used medium format cameras to impress the clients - but with 35mm film backs for economy and to save on film changes.
03-03-2018, 04:37 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lord Lucan Quote
I don't believe the clients are thinking technically, in fact I don't suppose that eg most wedding couples have any interest or clue what your camera's brand, model, format or IQ is, or even what IQ means.
They're just asking for full frame because they think it's better. It's uninformed, of course, but agencies have stipulated it before, as have photographers looking for a support photographer, and even couples and individuals. However silly it may be, it's the client's hard-earned dollar to spend on whoever they like
03-04-2018, 11:53 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Hmmm. But there are plenty of hobbyists - including some rather serious ones - who simply can't slap down $2,000 for a camera. I've done it before, but I honestly don't know if I'd want (or even be able) to do it again. I suspect there will always be a healthy market for the sub-$1,000 ILC. Maybe not as healthy as it once was, due to saturation... but still there nonetheless.
I suppose you're right that there's a market. It will probably just result in those cameras being updated on long product cycles and not getting really cutting edge updates. There's still money to be had there but maybe not enough to sink major development money into.

03-13-2018, 12:31 PM - 3 Likes   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lord Lucan Quote
My father did weddings and he said that for ordering the people around for the formal sequence of photos, a heavy-looking tripod with a big camera (6x6) on top acted as his "staff of authority". Some professional film photographers on occasion used medium format cameras to impress the clients - but with 35mm film backs for economy and to save on film changes.
I was at a local fandom meetup once where no one had a camera bigger than APS-C; when people started posing for photos in costume and I got out my K-30 with Rokinon 35/1.4 and its 77mm filter size, at least a few people audibly reacted to the effect of "whoa, big lens, get out of the way, this guy knows what he's doing".
And I wasn't even using that lens to provoke that reaction, but simply because it was my best indoor lens. So yeah, size can still be impressive to laypeople.
03-24-2018, 07:37 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Scintilla Quote
I was at a local fandom meetup once where no one had a camera bigger than APS-C; when people started posing for photos in costume and I got out my K-30 with Rokinon 35/1.4 and its 77mm filter size, at least a few people audibly reacted to the effect of "whoa, big lens, get out of the way, this guy knows what he's doing".
And I wasn't even using that lens to provoke that reaction, but simply because it was my best indoor lens. So yeah, size can still be impressive to laypeople.
Yep! Size matters even if it shouldn't.

The size advantage of mirrorless and smaller sensors when it comes to carrying the gear is actually a size disadvantage when it comes to impressing clients, friends, family, and passersby.
03-24-2018, 09:19 AM - 3 Likes   #37
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Will FF replace APSc? I hope not. It’s about choice - having the right tool for the task at hand.

My daughter was married last summer outdoors overlooking the Mississippi River at an historic house property. She kept asking me whether the cameras the photographers she was interviewing were good. I told her to itake a step back, ignore the gear and look at the online sample portfolios. Only two potential shooters she culled got through a 15 minute phone call without blathering about 5DMkll’s or L lenses.

She had me sit quietly for the interviews at the site. Shooting the event would be quite challenging. The winning pair asked her what she wanted, which was the requisite formal shots with what she called ‘focused people and blurred, backgrounds’, ‘some shots of the beautiful landscape with people in them’ and ‘lots of pictures of people having fun’ - but “don’t be in the way.” They asked about the time of the event. Dressing started at 9:30am. Formals were to be indoors in the historic house and less formal wedding party shots outdoors in front of blooming flowers around 11:30am-01:30pm. (A different photographer did B&W studio portraits of my daughter).Guests arrived by bus at 3:00pm. The ceremony was to be in full sun at 4:00pm, dinner was under a tent, cocktails went through Blue Hour and into full dusk and dancing was under LED colored stage lights, all outdoors. Light changed constantly. Settings and goals changed constantly.

When they started rapid-fire talking to each other about dynamic range, Depth of Field, switching from 5d’s to 7d’s and back, is 24-70 wide enough? Is 70-200 long enough?, looking at positions, talking lenses and lights, sun and shadow, white balance under the tent - my daughter turned to me and asked, “Dad, what are they talking about?” I said, “They’re talking about using the right cameras and lenses to give you the photos you want.” They stopped talking mid-sentence and looked at me . . . . and I asked, “Can you do what she wants?”

Later we talked about the K-1 and FA43 I pulled out from under the side table.


Last edited by monochrome; 03-24-2018 at 09:28 AM.
04-05-2018, 08:52 PM   #38
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I don’t think I ever talked about my camera, unless the client was a friend who I knew was interested in photography. My camera was modest (a Mamiya C3), but it was impressively different than Uncle Harry’s Spotmatic. If they asked, I would say “this camera uses bigger film so that your enlargements will look better”. And a potato-masher flash was indeed the Staff of Authority for getting people into position for formal shots.

In those days, 645 was just becoming popular and 6x6 was the standard wedding format.

Indeed, 35mm was considered an Uncle Harry camera—nevermind that my C3 cost a hundred bucks and my F-1 cost three times as much. A pro needed a camera that looked complicated and large to distinguish himself from amateur dilettantes. The C3 did that. And indeed the prints had a tonality that 35mm could not attain.

I did a wedding in 2005 and the question then was: do you want film or digital? They wanted film. He’s a camera nut but I waited until his wife wasn’t around before taking cameras. Did that gig with an N and NII (my last wedding with a C330 was 1999). Plus an Exakta 66 for a few formal portraits and a fisheye group shot. Medium format was the standard for weddings. My wife and I met late in life and married in 2000. The photographer never talked about the Bronica SQ she was using.

At a most recent wedding gig (and I do one about every two years), I used a Canon 5D and my wife used a Nikon D300. I did the formals and altar returns, and she did the candids at the reception—our usual division of duties. But there wasn’t a soul there who knew or cared about the distinction between 24x36 and 15x23. They had seen our work and that spoke for us.

My next wedding, if I use my incoming 645z instead of my 5DII, will just be for formal portraits and altar return photos. Probably I’ll use my 5DII for most of it, and my wife will use her D500. The smaller format suits her.

I’ve never heard of a photographer talking about cameras to the client instead of their requirements. That seems rather amateurish to me. When asked, I tell them, but the wives and their mothers (who are in charge) never ask. Daddy sometimes does. I’m mainly making sure I get photos of the people she wants photos of.

35mm was the standard sports and journalism format, and it became that in the 60s with the Nikon F. But that’s what we all wanted to be in college.

Rick “suspecting my 5D looks lower end than her D500 to the untrained eye” Denney
04-06-2018, 05:40 PM - 1 Like   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Scintilla Quote
I was at a local fandom meetup once where no one had a camera bigger than APS-C; when people started posing for photos in costume and I got out my K-30 with Rokinon 35/1.4 and its 77mm filter size, at least a few people audibly reacted to the effect of "whoa, big lens, get out of the way, this guy knows what he's doing".
And I wasn't even using that lens to provoke that reaction, but simply because it was my best indoor lens. So yeah, size can still be impressive to laypeople.

There is an effect that can happen with some people when they see a very large lens.

I have a Sigma 150-500 lens and ever so often, I mount it to my K5 with battery grip and wander around a local riverine forest on the outlook for interesting wildlife. A couple of years ago I was photographing a whitetail deer and a couple of people who were walking down a nearby path...saw me (and more importantly I think...saw the large lens) and stopped immediately. They watched me from a distance and once the deer had scampered away, one lady in the group, asked me if someone had paid me to photograph the deer. Well...I felt like a National Geographic photographer.

On other occasions when I'm at a outdoor car (hot rods, customs, etc.) show, with the 12-24 lens and big lens hood...there have been...not often...but it has happened a few times when someone thinks I'm from Hot Rod Magazine or Car Craft magazine.

If asked, I tell them no, I'm just a regular guy who likes good cameras. I can see the visible disappointment on their faces as they come to the stark realization that I'm merely a 'nothing burger' not some fancy-schmancy pro photographer who wants to take feature pictures of their lovingly crafted street rod.

So far ...walking around with a complicated looking camera body affixed to an equally fancy looking lens, has at best been been only a momentary upswing in my self esteem. Once the truth is known though...
04-08-2018, 07:30 AM - 2 Likes   #40
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QuoteQuote:
So far ...walking around with a complicated looking camera body affixed to an equally fancy looking lens, has at best been been only a momentary upswing in my self esteem. Once the truth is known though...

Read more at: Full frame to become again the mainstream format of camera? - Page 3 - PentaxForums.com
Once photographing one of the park bears, I had this little crowd behind me.One of the guys in the crowd's wife asked him what he was doing. He said "I'm following the guy (pointing at me) look at that lens, he must know what he's doing."

SO I did a walking photo work shop. A walking description of where I was going and why I ws going there so at least the crowd might get some understanding of the process. I didn't get any tips though. I guess the service wasn't up to par.
04-14-2018, 11:32 PM   #41
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When I look at the price of Fuji X-T2 and Fuji X-H1, and also Pentax KP, I realize the shift in the camera market: sensor cost decreased over the years, in the meantime camera sales diminished and camera prices increase as necessity to fun camera R&D (4K processing firmware, faster image processors, autofocus etc). To me, the rationale of apsc sensor was valid when full frame sensor were too expensive to make, and this is not the case anymore. So now there is not price difference between a Pentax K1, Fuji X-H1 or Sony A7III, because the cost in the firmware R&D mostly. I would say the route of Fuji apsc follow the decade old paradigm, Sony having a fresh approach to match current market constrains and Pentax focusing on full frame as well is a good thing.
04-15-2018, 02:42 AM - 2 Likes   #42
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There is no way that full frame cameras become the "mainstream camera." That ship has sailed.

The mainstream camera going forward is going to be the smartphone camera. That is clear and simple. Folks who actually use ILCs are in the minority already and will continue shrinking as cell phone cameras improve.

So, I suppose the question is, of the percentage of people who are buying ILCs, will the majority of them go full frame. Even there, I doubt it. It really does come down to cost. Yes, you can find relatively cheap full frame cameras, but those that don't skimp on specifications are at least 1800 dollars. That's quite a bit, even before you start factoring in lenses. Digital full frame feels like the place that larger film formats used to occupy back in the day -- the sort of place that real photo enthusiasts and many professionals end up in.

Every sensor size is a compromise -- even 35mm -- the thing is to choose the compromise that works best for your style of photography. I would just say that for most people the deciding factor generally isn't what style of photography they prefer, but what is on the shelf at their local electronics store and what fits their budget best. With that in mind, Canon APS-C cameras should continue to do quite well going forward.
04-15-2018, 01:12 PM - 1 Like   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
To me, the rationale of apsc sensor was valid when full frame sensor were too expensive to make, and this is not the case anymore.
APS-C cameras in all brands are still much cheaper than FF.



04-15-2018, 01:27 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
APS-C cameras in all brands are still much cheaper than FF.
And - at least so far as DSLRs are concerned - smaller and lighter, generally. Not by a huge margin, but enough that it makes a real difference. I love my full-frame Sonyblad HV and Sony Zeiss 24-70, but I shoot my K-3 and Sigma 17-50 more often. For me - and, I think, for a good number of amateur photographers - the smaller form factor of APS-C bodies and lenses is still appealing
04-15-2018, 02:53 PM - 1 Like   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
APS-C cameras in all brands are still much cheaper than FF.
Yes, and I suspect they always will be for two reasons:

1. A chip maker can make over twice as many APS-C sensors on a given wafer as FF sensors and probably with better yield. FF sensors will always be much more expensive. (Moore's Law only makes chips cheaper if you can make a smaller chip.)

2. To maximize both revenues and profits, it's best to offer "low-end" and "high-end" products. The high-end earns a premium and pays for R&D whilst the low-end drives volume . APS-C vs. FF is a good way to segment low from high-end.
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