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07-10-2018, 07:07 PM - 1 Like   #1
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Golf and Country Club photo shoot help

Hi everyone-
I was recently asked to photograph at a large Golf & Country Club. They need images to update their web-site. I have not signed any contracts with them yet and have not yet taken any photos. They are asking for rights to the images/copyright release. First of all, is this something that is necessary? Wouldn't this allow any of them to use my images for profit? Would it be more appropriate for them to have licensing for the images? They want 100 images. I have already asked $2700 for my time taking photos and editing. I had then planned on sending the photos to them via Dropbox. This is what has been agreed upon thus far. Do I negotiate an additional fee for copyright or licensing the images? After a lot of research, I have unfortunately found out that I have asked quite a bit less for this project than what I should have. Any thoughts/advice??

Thanks so much!!

Kelly

07-10-2018, 07:58 PM   #2
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Hello Kelly,

Hire a lawyer to get legal advice.
While at it, have them draft up a template contract that you can use for your gigs, form a LLC for your business, and establish yourself properly.
If you've already gone this route, and feel that you've undercharged, consider this as a learning experience in negotiations.

Or, do the job under the table, consider the job as a work for hire and assign the copyrights to the Golf & Country Club.

I've been on both sides of the deal and it's painful to learn these things first time out (especially in saying "No").
Good luck!
07-10-2018, 08:09 PM   #3
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Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Hank Quote
Hello Kelly,

Hire a lawyer to get legal advice.
While at it, have them draft up a template contract that you can use for your gigs, form a LLC for your business, and establish yourself properly.
If you've already gone this route, and feel that you've undercharged, consider this as a learning experience in negotiations.

Or, do the job under the table, consider the job as a work for hire and assign the copyrights to the Golf & Country Club.

I've been on both sides of the deal and it's painful to learn these things first time out (especially in saying "No").
Good luck!
Hi Hank-
Thank you so much. This is my first time doing something to this degree and I think I should have done a little more research beforehand, but as you said, a learning experience. Thanks again for your advice!

Kelly
07-10-2018, 08:37 PM - 1 Like   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by kellys Quote
They are asking for rights to the images/copyright release. First of all, is this something that is necessary? Wouldn't this allow any of them to use my images for profit?
That should be no surprise. However, if you are able to call that $2700 just your "fee", you may be able to get a substantial amount for exclusive rights. It has been 30+ years since my photo-marketing class, so it's just a guess, but I would think another $2700 or so. You might be able to look at other photographer's charges, or even stock photo sites for prices.

07-10-2018, 10:15 PM - 2 Likes   #5
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Depending where you and the country club are located, both APA (American Photographic Artist) and ASMP (American Society of Media Photographers) have a list of lawyers who specialize in photographic rights contracts though I don't know what the legal fees might range for non members.

Often large organizations state they want the copyrights to all images at the beginning of negotiations.
Some wont budge, others will settle for exclusive (possibly even limited) rights for a determined amount of time.
With a good legal advisor it is possible to at least make sure your accreditation as the photographer follows the images when they are used if the Country Club owns either the copyright or exclusive use.

Evaluate what this really means to you and ask yourself several questions:

Are these photos you are going to want to resell or use in the future or would you be willing to let the photos go in exchange for the accreditation to develop your brand?
(Often product photography is owned by the product owner but the photographer gains notoriety in the trade.)
Do you think they would be willing to pay more for the copyright or exclusive rights or be willing to settle for limited rights for the rate you are asking?

Will the images have potential market value other than the Country Club? Magazines/publications, stock photography, local tourism marketing?

Most importantly, why is this gig important to you? Is it important enough commercially to put out the expenses for legal advice and/or a solid contract?

I did a similar gig quite a few years back for a small Country Club's website and marketing.
I did it mainly to hone my skills in an alternative landscape and sport photography style and didn't charge a dime.
They were appreciative enough to give me 5 years of free golf and lessons.
I wasn't a golfer then but glad I went the route I did. I go out and play a couple times a month now (10 years later) and they still give me discounted rates even though I'm not a member.

Sit with yourself in a relaxed state for a fews hours and vision where you would like this gig to lead you.
Once you see where you would like it to end up then you will have a better idea of the path to follow and items you need to address, whether it be legal help, pursuit of a well defined negotiated contract or acknowledgement of a learning curve.

If you do follow it through, have fun. Golf and golf course photography can be challenging and rewarding for the photo experience in itself.
07-11-2018, 06:52 AM   #6
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Join Date: Oct 2016
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Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by SpecialK Quote
That should be no surprise. However, if you are able to call that $2700 just your "fee", you may be able to get a substantial amount for exclusive rights. It has been 30+ years since my photo-marketing class, so it's just a guess, but I would think another $2700 or so. You might be able to look at other photographer's charges, or even stock photo sites for prices.
That's about the amount I was thinking. Thanks so much for taking the time to comment!

---------- Post added 07-11-18 at 06:54 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by pcrichmond Quote
Depending where you and the country club are located, both APA (American Photographic Artist) and ASMP (American Society of Media Photographers) have a list of lawyers who specialize in photographic rights contracts though I don't know what the legal fees might range for non members.

Often large organizations state they want the copyrights to all images at the beginning of negotiations.
Some wont budge, others will settle for exclusive (possibly even limited) rights for a determined amount of time.
With a good legal advisor it is possible to at least make sure your accreditation as the photographer follows the images when they are used if the Country Club owns either the copyright or exclusive use.

Evaluate what this really means to you and ask yourself several questions:

Are these photos you are going to want to resell or use in the future or would you be willing to let the photos go in exchange for the accreditation to develop your brand?
(Often product photography is owned by the product owner but the photographer gains notoriety in the trade.)
Do you think they would be willing to pay more for the copyright or exclusive rights or be willing to settle for limited rights for the rate you are asking?

Will the images have potential market value other than the Country Club? Magazines/publications, stock photography, local tourism marketing?

Most importantly, why is this gig important to you? Is it important enough commercially to put out the expenses for legal advice and/or a solid contract?

I did a similar gig quite a few years back for a small Country Club's website and marketing.
I did it mainly to hone my skills in an alternative landscape and sport photography style and didn't charge a dime.
They were appreciative enough to give me 5 years of free golf and lessons.
I wasn't a golfer then but glad I went the route I did. I go out and play a couple times a month now (10 years later) and they still give me discounted rates even though I'm not a member.

Sit with yourself in a relaxed state for a fews hours and vision where you would like this gig to lead you.
Once you see where you would like it to end up then you will have a better idea of the path to follow and items you need to address, whether it be legal help, pursuit of a well defined negotiated contract or acknowledgement of a learning curve.

If you do follow it through, have fun. Golf and golf course photography can be challenging and rewarding for the photo experience in itself.
Thanks so much for this detailed response. It has helped me a lot in trying to figure out what to do. I appreciate you taking the time out of your day to comment and help me out!
07-12-2018, 02:55 PM - 1 Like   #7
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Location: Alberta, Canada
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QuoteOriginally posted by kellys Quote
Hi everyone-
I was recently asked to photograph at a large Golf & Country Club. They need images to update their web-site. I have not signed any contracts with them yet and have not yet taken any photos. They are asking for rights to the images/copyright release. First of all, is this something that is necessary? Wouldn't this allow any of them to use my images for profit? Would it be more appropriate for them to have licensing for the images? They want 100 images. I have already asked $2700 for my time taking photos and editing. I had then planned on sending the photos to them via Dropbox. This is what has been agreed upon thus far. Do I negotiate an additional fee for copyright or licensing the images? After a lot of research, I have unfortunately found out that I have asked quite a bit less for this project than what I should have. Any thoughts/advice??

Thanks so much!!
Kelly


Hi Kelly,
Couple of comments for you - It looks like you have some great advice already!
"Is this something that is necessary?" - Yes, to CYA both parties involved. It will also lay out what is expected of you and what you expect of them.

1. "Asking for Rights/copyright release" - These are 2 vastly different scenarios. "Rights to the images" are quite often in the form of Non-exclusive rights to publish, where they can use the images for web, print, etc as they see fit for either a specified period or in perpetuity. The common rate for this depends on how long the license is for (longer = more $$) and additional $ for print publication license. Fees for this range from $30 - $75/image (x 100 images = $3000-7500). This allows you to maintain the copyright and resell/reuse the images as you see fit. A Copyright Release is a matter of you releasing all claim to the Images ... forever. This should garner a substantially larger fee since you are giving up all possibility of future revenue from the images.


2. If you end up settling on a non-exclusive license agreement, then you will need them to sign a Property Release which gives you permission to shoot images on their property. It would be wise to contact a lawyer as has already been mentioned. You would find it useful to do some research on photo licensing and property releases and perhaps model releases for anyone identifiable within the images.


3. DropBox works well for me and is convenient for the client as well.

Exciting project - all the best to you!!
Dave
07-12-2018, 06:29 PM - 1 Like   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by R. Wethereyet Quote
Hi Kelly,
Couple of comments for you - It looks like you have some great advice already!
"Is this something that is necessary?" - Yes, to CYA both parties involved. It will also lay out what is expected of you and what you expect of them.

1. "Asking for Rights/copyright release" - These are 2 vastly different scenarios. "Rights to the images" are quite often in the form of Non-exclusive rights to publish, where they can use the images for web, print, etc as they see fit for either a specified period or in perpetuity. The common rate for this depends on how long the license is for (longer = more $$) and additional $ for print publication license. Fees for this range from $30 - $75/image (x 100 images = $3000-7500). This allows you to maintain the copyright and resell/reuse the images as you see fit. A Copyright Release is a matter of you releasing all claim to the Images ... forever. This should garner a substantially larger fee since you are giving up all possibility of future revenue from the images.


2. If you end up settling on a non-exclusive license agreement, then you will need them to sign a Property Release which gives you permission to shoot images on their property. It would be wise to contact a lawyer as has already been mentioned. You would find it useful to do some research on photo licensing and property releases and perhaps model releases for anyone identifiable within the images.


3. DropBox works well for me and is convenient for the client as well.

Exciting project - all the best to you!!
Dave
Very good points, there are so many versions of rights and releases and different intents that go with each.
Plus the mention of property and model releases that would need to accompany.
Thanks for bringing that up.

07-12-2018, 08:30 PM - 1 Like   #9
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 39
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by R. Wethereyet Quote
Hi Kelly,
Couple of comments for you - It looks like you have some great advice already!
"Is this something that is necessary?" - Yes, to CYA both parties involved. It will also lay out what is expected of you and what you expect of them.

1. "Asking for Rights/copyright release" - These are 2 vastly different scenarios. "Rights to the images" are quite often in the form of Non-exclusive rights to publish, where they can use the images for web, print, etc as they see fit for either a specified period or in perpetuity. The common rate for this depends on how long the license is for (longer = more $$) and additional $ for print publication license. Fees for this range from $30 - $75/image (x 100 images = $3000-7500). This allows you to maintain the copyright and resell/reuse the images as you see fit. A Copyright Release is a matter of you releasing all claim to the Images ... forever. This should garner a substantially larger fee since you are giving up all possibility of future revenue from the images.


2. If you end up settling on a non-exclusive license agreement, then you will need them to sign a Property Release which gives you permission to shoot images on their property. It would be wise to contact a lawyer as has already been mentioned. You would find it useful to do some research on photo licensing and property releases and perhaps model releases for anyone identifiable within the images.


3. DropBox works well for me and is convenient for the client as well.

Exciting project - all the best to you!!
Dave
Hi Dave-
Thank you so much for your help. You gave me some very valuable info. I am so very fortunate to have gotten such great responses. This whole scenario is quite confusing to me and I do have a lot more clarity now. Thank you for taking the time to respond! I appreciate it so very much!!

Kelly
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