[twilhelm]

"Sales decreased in the camera business as compared to the previous corresponding period."

So the succes for the 645Z was not that big, unless K-mount sales plummitted that year. I guess it was only phrases used by the marketeers to promote the succes of the 645Z instead of real sales made.

I wouldn’t expect a high end niche product like the 645Z to have a sizable impact on sale numbers. But the consensus seems to be that it outsold expectations across the board.

[RonHendriks1966]

I wouldn’t expect a high end niche product like the 645Z to have a sizable impact on sale numbers. But the consensus seems to be that it outsold expectations across the board.

If they sold 1000 units 645Z at retail prize $ 8.499 then you would have seen this in figures. It is like selling 7.000 dfa*50mm lenses. So you would see a spike that wasn't visable. Unless ofcourse other sales went down a lot. Like k-mount sales down by like 30-40 %.

Wich is possible since I wrote a part about it.
Collapsing Japanese camera market! - PentaxForums.com

Then it would make sense that the move towards the K-1 was driven by panic.

They have all stopped buying new gear until they see the Pentax Full Frame.
Everything will be OK.

[normhead]

Financial reports where not as popular in the 645Z time. Looked at it just briefly. The Imaging business was much bigger then today. The market was also bigger. They did with 645Z the same as with K-1, presenting it in april so iat the start of the new fiscal year. For the 645Z they did that in april 2014. Looking at the financial report for that presented in april 2015........

"Sales decreased in the camera business as compared to the previous corresponding period."

So the succes for the 645Z was not that big, unless K-mount sales plummitted that year. I guess it was only phrases used by the marketeers to promote the succes of the 645Z instead of real sales made.

Are you forgetting that most of the downturn was experienced by point and shoot and low end cameras, or are you intentionally ignoring that? 645 sales increased dramatically after the release of the 645z. FF sales increased dramatically after the release of the K-1. Both had production backlogs. This has been discussed multiple times. I'm posting for any newbies out there. I know Ron isn't going to pay any heed.

[RonHendriks1966]

Are you forgetting that most of the downturn was experienced by pointing shoot and low end cameras, or are you intentionally ignoring that? 645 sales increased dramatically after the release of the 645z. FF sales increased dramatically after the release of the K-1. Both had production backlogs. This has been discussed multiple times. I'm posting for any newbies out there. I know Ron isn't going to pay any heed.

Well they sold a number of 645z.....maybe between 1000-2000 units or so. But if it was more then financial reports would not easily have reported a decrease in sales.

For the start of the sale for K-1 in april 2016 we did see a large spike up in sales for that first quarter before the earthquake disrupted that.

Since we don't see new lenses for the 645 system, that maybe is because sales for the last releases, the 90mm and 28-45mm lenses, where not even close to be enough to make profit on them. The 35mm was just a refresh for the older lens.

People can have a consensus about the succes for the 645 system, but only if that was materializing in new lenses because sales support them it would have real meaning.

[ffking]

Well they sold a number of 645z.....maybe between 1000-2000 units or so. But if it was more then financial reports would not easily have reported a decrease in sales.

For the start of the sale for K-1 in april 2016 we did see a large spike up in sales for that first quarter before the earthquake disrupted that.

Since we don't see new lenses for the 645 system, that maybe is because sales for the last releases, the 90mm and 28-45mm lenses, where not even close to be enough to make profit on them. The 35mm was just a refresh for the older lens.

People can have a consensus about the succes for the 645 system, but only if that was materializing in new lenses because sales support them it would have real meaning.

It seems to me that the most that can happen out of this sort of speculation is that a self-fulfilling prophecy is created by people believing the FUD and Ricoh ditch Pentax. That's not a results anybody here (I assume) wants - unless to prove themselves right at the cost of others. That is the biggest outcome that could happen - far more likely is that it remains pointless speculation.

[monochrome]

This post was made by a user whom you are ignoring.

Rebuttal.

This post was made by a user whom you are ignoring.

Interesting conversation.

.:

[normhead]

Well they sold a number of 645z.....maybe between 1000-2000 units or so. But if it was more then financial reports would not easily have reported a decrease in sales.

I'm not saying there isn't a downturn in the market. I'm saying the 645z and K-1 have helped Pentx buck the trend. Does anyone here really care that camera companies lost 80% of their point and shot business, probably to cell phones. Yet you continue to post as if those are meaningful stats for us. Especially since Ricoh had already canibalized Pentax point and shoots into the Ricoh product line and combined them into their own. In effect, they shielded Pentax from the downturn by removing the divisions most likely to take a hit. Whether Pentax is affected in anyway at this point by the down turn in the Point and Shoot market is moot. Those divisions are no longer part of Pentax. That's Ricoh issue, and they've dealt with it. The sales of 645z are not likely to make up for the down turn in P&S cameras. Same with the K-1. But the sales of those cameras will keep Pentax, not Rocoh's camera divisions possible.

If anything, the point to be made here is that Ricoh has isolated the Pentax from the downturn and enabled it to keep the new growth areas that will lead to new profits. I have no idea why you are framing this as a bad thing.

---

Last edited by normhead; 08-19-2018 at 12:59 PM.

[Wasp]

I'm guessing the Asahi Optical Co. stickers they've been handing out at CP+ and including in some of the Japanese DFA* 50mm packages have something to do with the Centennial. I'd expect a K-1ii Centennial/Centenary Edition (Platinum?) featuring an engraved AOC logo.

I don't think that the idea of putting "Asahi Optical Company" on products will go down well with Ricoh.

[ffking]

I really, REALLY hope that their centennial celebration isn't limited to special editions of existing cameras

[RonHendriks1966]

If anything, the point to be made here is that Ricoh has isolated the Pentax from the downturn and enabled it to keep the new growth areas that will lead to new profits. I have no idea why you are framing this as a bad thing.

There is no Ricoh and Pentax. There is only Ricoh-Imaging, a division that makes camera's and markets them in the brands Ricoh and Pentax.

Im not framing anything. It's very simply reading and interpreting financial reports.

Pentax has not grown over the past 7 years. Pentax is much smaller now then it was when Ricoh took it over at the end of 2011.

For the running fiscal year their prognose is that the camera division will have sales decline of 10 %. Wich is considareble, but better then last years result with a downturn of 23 %.

[normhead]

There is no Ricoh and Pentax. There is only Ricoh-Imaging, a division that makes camera's and markets them in the brands Ricoh and Pentax.

Im not framing anything. It's very simply reading and interpreting financial reports.

Pentax has not grown over the past 7 years. Pentax is much smaller now then it was when Ricoh took it over at the end of 2011.

For the running fiscal year their prognose is that the camera division will have sales decline of 10 %. Wich is considareble, but better then last years result with a downturn of 23 %.

So you really think the individual divisions withoin Ricoh , if one division goes down, they all go down? That Rich won't address the money making divisions separately from their money making divisions? Is the what you think.

Talking to you is like banging your head against wall. You different way of seeing things ever penetrates that noggin of yours. You just repeat the same.

Pentax has not grown over the past 7 years. Pentax is much smaller now then it was when Ricoh took it over at the end of 2011.

Ricoh moved the point and shoot and RG line over to Ricoh. So is Pentax smaller? Of course it is, a whole division was transferred to Ricoh... so what? That doesn't prove a damn thing. Please stop repeating it as if it does.

Since 2011, Ricoh has brought out the 645z and FF cameras to add to the APS-c lines that were their bread and better. It's almost certain that Pentax is bigger today, it has more product lines and has continued to add to it's catalogue, not counting the point and shoots. Repeating the same old flawed perspective is not the same as a discussion.

Do you ever expand your horizons because of something someone else said? Or do you just repeat the same old same old year after year? That Pentax report is getting real old, and you misused it when you fort posted it.

Now if you're saying the Pentax DSLR line is smaller, after adding both the 645z and K-1, as many times as you've repeated that, you've never, as in never ever, produced any relevant data supporting your position. To the point, when I read your posts now, I see the same old same old Ihave answered you more than a few times and so have others.

You are getting really stale my friend.

There is not a shred of evidence that if you look at the same product lines Pentax has now, and looked at those same product lines in 2011 Pentax is smaller now than it was then. Now matter how many times you repeat the opposite, that's not going to change.

[RonHendriks1966]

A portfolio of products (wich Pentax grew over the past years) is something different then looking at sales of those products (wich declined over the past years in units and in yen).

[normhead]

A portfolio of products (wich Pentax grew over the past years) is something different then looking at sales of those products (wich declined over the past years in units and in yen).

First explain the difference, if that portfolio now comprises the whole of Pentax, where do we see that pentax is declining? Again, repeating it over and over doesn't make it true. The way you make your case is deceptive at best at best. You're talking about Pentax as if Ricoh and Pentax are the same thing. Pentax is a division of Ricoh. Clearly not the same thing. if you have some evidence that the Pentax division of Ricoh is losing ground in either volume sales or gross income , please post them. I haven't seen any numbers that suggest that, and I'm definitely not irresponsible to make claims one way or the other. All I know that they have added product lines and statements like "half of K-1 owners are new to the brand" which suggest very strongly that the brand (and division) is growing. Are you operating at a lower standard?

[RonHendriks1966]

First explain the difference, if that portfolio now comprises the whole of Pentax, where do we see that pentax is declining? Again, repeating it over and over doesn't make it true. The way you make your case is deceptive at best at best. You're talking about Pentax as if Ricoh and Pentax are the same thing. Pentax is a division of Ricoh. Clearly not the same thing. if you have some evidence that the Pentax division of Ricoh is losing ground in either volume sales or gross income , please post them. I haven't seen any numbers that suggest that, and I'm definitely not irresponsible to make claims one way or the other. All I know that they have added product lines and statements like "half of K-1 owners are new to the brand" which suggest very strongly that the brand (and division) is growing. Are you operating at a lower standard?

oh boy. Well I and Mistral75 have posted on the subject more then once. I'm not going to spend time on looking into that today or this week again. It is to find here on this forum and on other places. If you never read about it, I would say don't start loosing sleep over it now.

[monochrome]

@RonHendricks1966 Direct Question. Please cite factual sources.

How many Pentax-branded Reflex cameras and interchangeable lenses were shipped by Ricoh Imaging Co., Ltd. in

• 2011 ?
• 2012 ?
• 2013 ?
• 2014 ?
• 2015 ?
• 2016 ?
• 2017 ?
• 2018 to date ?