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09-05-2018, 02:59 PM   #16
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I wonder what portion of the market for FF mirrorless is video related because that's really where Sony and Panasonic set themselves apart from the pack in mirrorless. In my job, my bosses are in love with the DSLR look for video. They like the shallow depth of field, the saturated colors, and that overall film look. They bought us a Canon 5D, but are looking at buying more DSLR or mirrorless cameras in the near future. For me, one issue with a DSLR is that you can't use the viewfinder when shooting video since you have to move the mirror out of the way. Plus, I have to be very careful if I want to use any of my Pentax lenses with our Canon because the aperture lever can damage its mirror. You don't have those issues with a mirrorless because you're using an electronic viewfinder that's taking a feed off the sensor. Plus, the Sony, Panasonic, and Fuji can output what are essentially the video version of shooting in RAW. I'm not sure about Nikon, but I don't think Canons can do that...or rather, couldn't in the past. I haven't really looked that close at the new Nikon and Canon FF mirrorless cameras so maybe that's something they changed.

09-05-2018, 03:00 PM - 1 Like   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Neuse River Sailor Quote
But the advantages of a mirror are slight, the costs are high and I would rather trade that off against either a lower initial cost or more features
Have you seen the prices of the new offerings from Canon and Nikon ?
09-05-2018, 03:00 PM - 2 Likes   #18
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Wow. Not a single ignored user has posted in this thread yet. I'm sure that will change tonight...
09-05-2018, 03:01 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by jake14mw Quote
Can someone educate me on the advantages of mirrorless? I remember when they were first discussed, people were talking about their smaller size, but since the lenses for them are so big, that doesn't really matter. Has Sony mirrorless been so successful because they were mirrorless, or because they had great features? Thanks.

In a lot of ways, it's good innovation. You don't really even need a shutter anymore, that's a holdover from film. You can simply tell the sensor when to blink on and off and for what duration. In theory, the lack of mirror saves space, but I think that advantage is quickly lost when you start mounting lenses to it.


The big disadvantages to me are two of the things that have me in Pentax. You can't have an optical viewfinder without a mirror. You either frame and focus in live view, like you did with the K-01 and you do with the Q or you have an electronic viewfinder, which makes the camera bigger again, but it's essentially a screen inside an eyepiece. I had a fuji camera years ago with one and hated it. They've gotten better, but still don't feel like home to me.

The other disadvantage is that Sony had no legacy glass to dis-infranchise, so everyone buying into it was buying into a new system anyway. Nikon and Canon's offerings introduced a new lens mount for that system that isn't compatible with their dSLR cousins. To my knowledge the Pentax K-01 is the only mirrorless that was at least ASP-C in sensor size that worked with the dSLR lens mount. That made it a compelling travel camera for people with larger, heavier Pentax dSLRs, but it was criticized for being big and ugly, by comparison and didn't do well enough to make more than one version of.

I think the KP is there to scratch that itch now. A K1 and a KP share the same lenses, but exist in different form factors and at different price points...and they both have really good optical view finders.

09-05-2018, 03:29 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by pschlute Quote
Have you seen the prices of the new offerings from Canon and Nikon ?
It will be interesting to see the price point on the Panasonic.
09-05-2018, 03:35 PM - 1 Like   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
This article explains the DSLR vs mirrorless advantages and disadvantages pretty well:

Mirrorless vs DSLR Cameras - Which One is Better and Why
Focus
09-05-2018, 03:52 PM - 1 Like   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by troika Quote
You don't really even need a shutter anymore
How would a shutterless camera deal with moving subjects ?
09-05-2018, 04:17 PM - 1 Like   #23
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I think that mirrorless and full frame both have a lot of mystique in the industry right now, some people need them and many think they need them. Sony led the charge and has the resources, distribution network, and marketing to stay on top. They have not been afraid to throw money at the e mount system, coming out with many lenses and cameras. I bought a used Sony a6000 (APS-C), not because of adapting lenses (which I read a lot about on this forum) but because of the super small size and fast auto focus. There are some very small lenses available, I have a 20 mm Sony lens that can be mounted on the camera and easily fit in my pocket. It's a very nice little camera that can come close to my Pentax cameras for image quality. It's not going to replace my Pentax cameras, more like a compliment. I also considered buying Fuji, another company coming out with lots of products and making their presence known. I don't think it is a surprise that Canon and Nikon are entering the market, they want to keep and grow market share. I don't think either has done well in the mirrorless market so far, in fact i think Nikon discontinued the Nikon 1 line, but I could be wrong. I think they could do well if they produce some affordable long telephotos, and pro long telephotos, their DSLRs own a lot of that market now, something Sony has not really capitalized on.

Panasonic would probably need a new mount, I sure don't think you could go full frame with a M4/3 mount, Olympus probably would have done it. Anyway, it did not seem to hurt Sony or Olympus to change mounts. Who knows about Fuji, the the way the jumped into Medium Format was surprising, and seemingly very successful, and their resources seem endless. I think if Pentax changed it's mount it would devastate the user base. But, keeping the K mount for DSLR and a new mount for mirrorless would not matter to new customers. I guess Sony may still support the A mount (barely), but Olympus, dropped the O mount, then dropped 4/3, and seem to be doing fine.

Sorry for this rambling post of unconnected thoughts, kind of watching the news while I was writing it.

09-05-2018, 04:19 PM - 4 Likes   #24
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For me, the SLR was the style of camera I cut my teeth on. And it was small enough, but had bigger negatives than those awful cheapo 110 cameras, so that you could get a good enlarged image out of it.
The SLR fit in my hand, my luggage, felt right. The way of shooting (eye to cup) suited me, but then I appreciate this is because there were few alternatives and it was what I was used to.
A good few years ago (1990s?)I bought a Kodak digital camera, the quality was awful, put me right off. I continued with my Pentax SLRs and was quite happy.
Then two things happened at the same time, I started using Android smartphones and bought a DSLR (K110D). This would be 2007-ish.
The smartphone cameras are amazing for the subjects they're good at, but I never liked the "screen" composing and setup, even though the pixel count was high. I still use them for snaps, on the grounds I always have one with me.
The DSLR however was right up my street. Everything worked as it should, it spoke the same language of ISO/F stop/speed as my film cameras. I was hooked.
Now as I type I still have my film camera, and (via a K70, K10 and K100) a K5 and a K3. I think the K5 and K3 are awesome ergonomically, and the images they produce are great for me. I'm a keen amateur not a pro which leaves me in full control of what is "acceptable".
The SLR/DSLR world is where I live. I know, I'm a dinosaur. I know, mirrorless is the future. I know, EVF is the way forward. But I look at the Nikon and Canon announcements and see highly uncomfortable looking cameras, no smaller than my "K"s with the lens adaptor on, and I'm not tempted. At all.
There have always been other formats, other ways of capturing images. I'm not criticising any of them, if someone enjoys photography that's great in my book, regardless of the make and model they use. If I'm asked why I use Pentax, I'll tell people, but I won't persuade. If they want Canon, Nikon, Sony, M4/3, mediums, rangefinder........ go for it, it's a personal choice.
So, out of the ramble above (sorry!) I'll be quite happy for Pentax to keep making boring, traditional SLRs which I'll keep using until i can't hold one any more. I've never had a Pentax I disliked, or one that failed to impress. So I hope they keep it that way.

Last edited by MrMojo; 09-05-2018 at 04:25 PM.
09-05-2018, 05:09 PM - 2 Likes   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
This article explains the DSLR vs mirrorless advantages and disadvantages pretty well:

Mirrorless vs DSLR Cameras - Which One is Better and Why
The disadvantages listed here pretty much sum it up for me. In particular the EVF lag.I am quite amused by the tone of this article which to my cynical eye treats the limitations of DSLR as deal killers but treats those of the mirror-less as minor inconveniences that will be solved some day.Come back to me when they are solved.
09-05-2018, 05:29 PM - 1 Like   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Neuse River Sailor Quote
The advantages to me are that most older lenses can be adapted due to the short index, and a fragile, expensive mechanical part is eliminated. Don't get me wrong, I know the manufacturers have the mirror mechanism down pat and they can last hundreds of thousands of cycles between failures. But the advantages of a mirror are slight, the costs are high and I would rather trade that off against either a lower initial cost or more features. This is for my style of photography. I understand that different people have different priorities.
The optical viewfinder is traded for a digital viewfinder. Mirror and pentaprism for electronics, processor and screen. I thought the same first, but actually not much to gain here, imho.
09-05-2018, 05:29 PM - 3 Likes   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by troika Quote
Canon and Nikon have long, storied histories of introducing new lens mounts and abandoning their legacy glass or requiring adapters, so maybe their faithful won't care as much.
True of Canon - they totally abandoned their FD mount roughly thirty years ago, and that led to their current dominance

False of Nikon - their users make the same kind of claims that Pentax users do .... but with a little more history. Apparently a Nikon D850 can use, without any adapter, every Nikon lens manufactured since 1949 or some such year.
09-05-2018, 05:45 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
True of Canon - they totally abandoned their FD mount roughly thirty years ago, and that led to their current dominance

False of Nikon - their users make the same kind of claims that Pentax users do .... but with a little more history. Apparently a Nikon D850 can use, without any adapter, every Nikon lens manufactured since 1949 or some such year.
I had an AE-1 Program with some FD lenses (my dad's), so I knew that history, but don't know as much about Nikon. But, it seems that even before this mirrorless camera, there were multiple Nikon mounts. Are there FF and crop lenses different mounts? Just searching Adorama it seems to specify which Nikon dSLR goes with which lenses. I feel like I read an article on various Nikon mounts the referenced changes over time as well.

But, I could be wrong.
09-05-2018, 05:49 PM - 1 Like   #29
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Having read the article I can see the real reason mirrorless will win out in future - manufacturing cost. Personally , having played, fiddled and lusted after some mirrorless options prior to buying my K3 in Sept 2015, I do not care either way, whether my camera has an optical or electronic viewfinder.If Pentax do go down the mirrorless route I do hope they keep the same lens mount as one of the major reasons for my decision back then was the backward compatibility with lots of legacy glass. A requirement I would still want in any future purchase. As an enthusiast rather than a pro, I can not afford to keep changing systems.
Clearly Nikon did not bother to read the article or chose to ignore it, before producing their new Z range - OOPS!
09-05-2018, 08:46 PM - 2 Likes   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by troika Quote
I had an AE-1 Program with some FD lenses (my dad's), so I knew that history, but don't know as much about Nikon. But, it seems that even before this mirrorless camera, there were multiple Nikon mounts. Are there FF and crop lenses different mounts? Just searching Adorama it seems to specify which Nikon dSLR goes with which lenses. I feel like I read an article on various Nikon mounts the referenced changes over time as well.

But, I could be wrong.
QuoteQuote:
The Nikon F-mount is one of only two SLR lens mounts (the other being the Pentax K-mount) which were not abandoned by their associated manufacturer upon the introduction of autofocus, but rather extended to meet new requirements related to metering, autofocus, and aperture control.
A Nikon F-mount lens from 1959 will mount on any Nikon DSLR. You won't get metering, but it will mount and take photos. Changes to the F-mount over the years are roughly analogous to changes in the K-mount. Changes were made in the 1970s (AI), 1980s (AF), and 2000s (electromagnetic aperture, in-lens AF motors, VR, etc). DX lenses are for APS-C, like DA lenses...
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