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11-08-2018, 03:31 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
I know I'm a bit of a broken record, but don't forget that a sizeable chunk of this mirrorless craze has to do with video...and that's an area where Sony has decades of experience over Canon and Nikon. I think it's way too early to be predicting the death of Sony.
Sony has decades of experience over Canon? Not in ILC they don't. Now you got me laughing.


Last edited by normhead; 11-08-2018 at 03:42 PM.
11-08-2018, 03:55 PM - 5 Likes   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul the Sunman Quote
According to B&H[/URL], there were only two DSLRs released in 2018, the entry level compact Nikon D3500 (trying to mimic MILC size while retaining DSLR functionality), and the Pentax K1 Mark II. That's it. Nothing from Canon! So even the Big Boys can't play both games at once.
Let me say straight out that as discussed in the past, the BCN ratings can't be trusted to represent the market, as they're an odd index of some comparatively minor outlets in Japan.

But on the subject of brand releases, Paul, did you realise that the formerly prolific Sony has itself released only one camera this year, the A7 III?

And that it has not released an entry level or middle level APS-C camera since 2014?

This is the troubled industry we're seeing. "Affordable" cameras and lenses won't keep a company going, premium to a minority is the direction.

Last edited by clackers; 11-08-2018 at 05:14 PM.
11-08-2018, 05:00 PM - 1 Like   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
And that it has not released an entry level or middle level APS-C camera since 2014?
Was actually thinking it was interesting to see the B&H November deals come around with the same a6000 bundle they had last year, and it struck me that while there have been new releases since the a6000 debuted, we're seeing the same basic line up for several years now.
11-08-2018, 05:06 PM - 1 Like   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote

But on the subject of brand releases, Paul, did you realise that Sony has itself released only one camera this year, the A7 III?

And that it has not released an entry level or middle level APS-C camera since 2014?

This is the troubled industry we're seeing. "Affordable" cameras and lenses won't keep a company going, premium to a minority is the direction.
I would agree. You've summed it up well.

11-08-2018, 05:13 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by clickclick Quote
Was actually thinking it was interesting to see the B&H November deals come around with the same a6000 bundle they had last year, and it struck me that while there have been new releases since the a6000 debuted, we're seeing the same basic line up for several years now.
Yeah, and my hunch - that's all it is, I've no figures whatsoever - is that the A9 was an expensive flop. So you can overreach in the premium market, too, because I suspect (again, no data, just gut feel) the RX1R is a similar failure, unlike Leica, who it was designed to undercut.
11-08-2018, 05:38 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
I know I'm a bit of a broken record, but don't forget that a sizeable chunk of this mirrorless craze has to do with video...and that's an area where Sony has decades of experience over Canon and Nikon. I think it's way too early to be predicting the death of Sony.
Forgive me, but didn’t Canon make professional camcorders before Sony? Didn’t/t Sony break into the market with professional studio cameras for broadcast TV (replacing RCA) before they developed shoulder-mount remote camcorders?

That’s what ABC News had, anyway _ Canon remote cameras and Sony studio cameras.
11-08-2018, 08:15 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Interesting how quick the collpase of Sony mirrorless happened:

Japanese retailer (BCN) marketshares of FF mirrorless by month:

https://photorumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Sony-Nikon-Canon-full-fra...rket-share.jpg

Sony loosing 1/3 of their marketshare within just 2 months is a massive fail.

A single (!) Canon model now cut off 22,1% in the second month from Sony who are currently selling 16 () models and who had all the internet marketing mumbo-jumbo sales support anyone could ever get.

While Nikon's 2 models only got half of that (so 1/4 of Canons market performance each) it also invaded Sony ground semi-successfully.

Seems like Canon marketingwise again is doing everything right. And that with only a handful of native new dslm lenses.

I don't think such massive customer losses have happened to any maker any time before. Sony is the all-time loss leader now.

Usually North American and European photo markets have been lagging about 1 year behind the developments in Japan, so there is an interesting time ahead.

I wonder what will be left of Sony, once Canon brings out a dslm brother of their 5D.
Sony is just fine. The Canon spike is due to existing Canon owners buying the new mirrorless body to use with their existing Canon glass. Let's see what happens to Canon's DSLR sales. Canon and Nikon are both going to sell a whole lot of mirrorless cameras. They both have a very large and very loyal fan base. The added competition is badly needed. Sony has been on cruise control and will finally have to really improve build quality and ergonomics. I personally think Nikon has the more appealing mirrorless body than Canon, but we will see. Sony has a 4-5 year head start and some really nice glass. Sony isn't going anywhere. They have the best sensor technology and the best mirrorless AF for tracking. The Canon AF-C is needs a whole lot of improvement.


Canon has been bleeding customers to Sony for a couple of years now, and the EOS R is really just designed to appeal to existing Canon users who want a mirrorless body.
11-08-2018, 09:25 PM   #23
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Sony could be selling more mirrorless cameras than ever and their percentage marketshare would still go down simply because there are other brands being sold. There are huge numbers of Canon and Nikon users (the majority of ILC cameras out today) that are trying out their brand's mirrorless offering.

11-08-2018, 09:55 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Forgive me, but didn’t Canon make professional camcorders before Sony? Didn’t/t Sony break into the market with professional studio cameras for broadcast TV (replacing RCA) before they developed shoulder-mount remote camcorders?

That’s what ABC News had, anyway _ Canon remote cameras and Sony studio cameras.
First part isn't quite true, Sony's Betacam (not Betamax) was designed for ENG and came out in 1983. But it seems to me that Canon took over the remote video camera business early in this century and led the way with still cameras adapted for shooting video.
11-09-2018, 03:52 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
I know I'm a bit of a broken record, but don't forget that a sizeable chunk of this mirrorless craze has to do with video...and that's an area where Sony has decades of experience over Canon and Nikon. I think it's way too early to be predicting the death of Sony.
Others have said it, but I think Canon has plenty of experience in making video recorders. They have just chosen to cripple their video to a certain extent on their SLRs.
11-09-2018, 04:54 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
I wonder what will be left of Sony, once Canon brings out a dslm brother of their 5D.
I don't think Sony is going to die anytime soon. They are the masters of "Let's throw a lot of products at the wall see what sticks." They have had the money and the resources to do that for decades. Now they have a winner in their mirrorless cameras. The only reason they are in the position they are in now is because Canon and Nikon fell sleep behind the wheel. Now Canon and Nikon have come out of their respective comas to find out that the bus left the station a while ago. I don't know about Nikon but Canon and Sony are massive diversified companies. They can lose money in one area and because of revenue from other areas, they can stay in the game for the long haul.

As to actual user I know of (wedding and portrait photographers), these are guys that buy cameras and lenses all the time, one went from Canon to Fuji two years ago. One is using Sony and Canon in parallel, gradually favoring Sony and buying more Sony and almost no new Canon gear. One ditched all Canon gear in favor of all Nikon stuff with some Sony 6000 class bodies and lenses. I stopped full time wedding work back in 2007 when I saw the rise of digital and comodatiztion of our beloved industry. I was a Canon shooter for weddings. I love my K1 and my limited FAs for some personal and occasional paid work. My mirrorless camera (for occasional 4K video work) was a lone Panasonic GX8 with two lenses which I sold and later bought a Fuji XT-2. If I had to start all over again, I will probably go with all Sony gear. The only reason I did not buy Sony and tried Fuji is the cost of lenses. Thinking that in the long haul the total cost of the system will be lower. The other reason was the form factor of the Sony which I still do not like.

The digicam game is totally out of control now that Panasonic is jumping into the FF game. Way too many players and choice. Just like other industries, we may see consolidations. It is bound to happen. The question is who is going to buy who and if the technology or the platform is adaptable. Let's not forget mighty Samsung gave up on camera biz. If I had to guess, my money would be on the bigger players. Unfortunately, smaller players, Pentax included, are in danger of extinction.
11-09-2018, 05:47 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Forgive me, but didn’t Canon make professional camcorders before Sony? Didn’t/t Sony break into the market with professional studio cameras for broadcast TV (replacing RCA) before they developed shoulder-mount remote camcorders?

That’s what ABC News had, anyway _ Canon remote cameras and Sony studio cameras.
If Canon was making camcorders before Sony, I never saw them...and I've been working broadcasting for 40 years. We used Canon lenses on our studio cameras, but the first Canon camcorder that ever hit our station was the XL-1 and that was a LONG time after we had been using Sony gear in a variety of applications, from cameras to record decks to wireless mics. Right now, the show I work on is considering ditching our old tradional shoulder-mount camcorders and going mirrorless. We already have a Canon 5D, but hardly anybody uses it because you have to use the LCD screen to focus so it's pretty much useless in bright sunlight. We're looking at either the Sony a7iii or the Lumix GH5. Canon and Nikon aren't even in the conversation.
11-09-2018, 07:42 AM   #28
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Interesting how it was pretty much known when Sony started selling everyone knew they were taking sales from other manufacturers.

Look at what happened here on the forum. There were a number of shooters, some of my favourites how bought Sony Full frames to use their existing Pentax glass. By extrapolation we can assume there were numbers of Nikon and Canon shooter that did the same. And here on the forum when the K-1 came out those guys bought K-1 bodies.

The assumption seems to be that everyone who bought into Sony is 100% happy with their Sony gear. Where as from our experience here we know that Sony was their only mirrorless option. Now that there are three mirrorless options that's not the case. There is absolutely no way this doesn't cost Sony market share and sales.

The important thing here is both Canon and Nikon have taken steps to prevent further loss of market share, that by itself will hurt Sony. But they are also in a position to take back some of the market share, especially from shooters who want a small second body to back up their DSLR.

This is so obvious I'm not sure why we're even discussing it. Sony is going to lose some of their existing user base, but they are also going to a lose a huge number of potential new users.

---------------

QuoteQuote:
If Canon was making camcorders before Sony, I never saw them..

Read more at: Canon starting to butcher Sony in FF mirrorless (as predicted) - Page 2 - PentaxForums.com


QuoteQuote:
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Sony has decades of experience over Canon? Not in ILC they don't. Now you got me laughing.
See where you messed up? Or do I have to spell it out?
11-09-2018, 08:17 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Sony loosing 1/3 of their marketshare within just 2 months is a massive fail.
This is a little to soon to tell. The market also became bigger due to new customers entering that never bought a fullframe mirrorless camera before. Sony is now agressively advertising and offering good deals. So it is good for the customers. Let's see how that is in 18 months.
11-09-2018, 08:20 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Depends on whether Sony's total sales dropped. It should be pretty easy to figure out.
The total mirrorless consumers have not grown lately (for years). So while the customer base has not grown a collapse in Sony's market share automatically means they kept/won much, much fewer customers.




Lots of people who in the past might have considered a Sony, now chose the Canon EOS R.

While nobody knows what is really happening in numbers, at least in German photo forums it seems lots of temporary Sony users now sell their Alphas and go to Canon.
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