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11-09-2018, 08:30 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
While nobody knows what is really happening in numbers, at least in German photo forums it seems lots of temporary Sony users now sell their Alphas and go to Canon.
And that is exactly what happened when Pentax released full frame. Many who just want their best pentax glass on full frame cameras assigned their Sony gear to other duties and bought a K-1. And you can also assume that that purchase of the K-1 will cut off an future purchases they would have made to continue using heir Pentax glass on a full frame.

I'm not sure where this notion of two major players entering the mirrorless market won't hurt the previously only major player in this market could have come from. "Denial, it's not just a river in Africa,"


Last edited by normhead; 11-09-2018 at 08:47 AM.
11-09-2018, 08:50 AM   #32
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Mirrorless sales in yen did increase with almost 15 % compared to one year ago while shipping almost the same amount of units. So more expensive camera's are being sold at the moment.
11-09-2018, 09:44 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Mirrorless sales in yen did increase with almost 15 % compared to one year ago while shipping almost the same amount of units. So more expensive camera's are being sold at the moment.
Sounds like everyone is doing the "profit margin not market share" thing, not just Rich/Pentax. Premium product not cheaper items for more market share.
11-09-2018, 10:10 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Sounds like everyone is doing the "profit margin not market share" thing, not just Rich/Pentax. Premium product not cheaper items for more market share.
All company's moving towards fullframe and not much investment in aps-c at the time.

11-09-2018, 10:21 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Forgive me, but didn’t Canon make professional camcorders before Sony? Didn’t/t Sony break into the market with professional studio cameras for broadcast TV (replacing RCA) before they developed shoulder-mount remote camcorders?

That’s what ABC News had, anyway _ Canon remote cameras and Sony studio cameras.
The first professional camcorders were from Ikegami in the 60s (two piece design) and SONY Betacam in the 80s. If you go to the following, you'll see Canon was never part of the mix early on in the professional camera field.

Professional video camera - Wikipedia
11-09-2018, 10:25 AM - 1 Like   #36
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Come on dudes, Canon video quality in their DSLRs was a selling point for years, ahead of everyone else. We all know that. Stop nit picking.

We are talking about video in still portable cameras, period. Who made the first studio camera that needed a powered tripod to drive it around isn't relevant.

Who made the first camera you could carry on your shoulder is irrelevant. I once carried one of those on hike in the park. It was dangerous and back breaking.

Who made video they could pack into an ILC still camera that was smaller and much more compact than earlier video monstrosities is all that matters here.

Last edited by normhead; 11-10-2018 at 05:19 PM.
11-09-2018, 12:09 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Interesting how quick the collpase of Sony mirrorless happened:

Japanese retailer (BCN) marketshares of FF mirrorless by month:

https://photorumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Sony-Nikon-Canon-full-fra...rket-share.jpg

Sony loosing 1/3 of their marketshare within just 2 months is a massive fail..
Somebody put two and two together and got about seven...

How many manufacturers were selling full frame mirrorless cameras before September? Two – Sony and Leica (the latter is not a big seller at all). So two more manufacturers launch FF mirrorless models and ... some people buy them. There's a bigger choice now, duh.
11-09-2018, 12:37 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
but they are also going to a lose a huge number of potential new users.
It's worse than that, there are potential MILC buyers who have already decided to not buy Sony, for whatever reason, and now that there are other options, there is virtually no chance those buyers will change their minds. Sony has had three years to convince potential buyers to buy their FF mirrorless cameras, without any competition; with Nikon and Canon now in the game, Sony's window of opportunity is rapidly closing. No one buys a FF mirrorless body without considering the lenses to go on it and Sony has nothing special to offer owners of Canon and Nikon glass.


There isn't new technology for this form factor that can grow Sony's business, it will inevitably decline in both share and volume. Management at Sony knows this as well as we do, they aren't going to keep investing in new models, they are going to maximize their return on their existing business.

11-09-2018, 05:23 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
Canon is certainly a dominant force in any camera market it gets involved in.
Except in the underwater camera market - The Nikonos system SLAYED Canons paltry offerings.

QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
It's important to note that marketshare is a very poor metric for success in a dynamic industry where total demand can grow or shrink and the products are not easily interchangeable.
Agreed - however I think the market will shrink as demand will fall as the existing userbase "upgrades" to the new MILC. The biggest obstacle I see is with lens releases, Fuji did a good job with this by consistently releasing interesting lenses for their X system. If Nikon/Canon can keep their userbase needs fulfilled they will rise to the top of the heap with ease.
11-09-2018, 05:37 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Except in the underwater camera market - The Nikonos system SLAYED Canons paltry offerings.


I remember the Nikonos. At one time wanting to come up with a good underwater shot....I thought of stuffing my Canon F-1 in a ziplock freezer bag but eventually I thought...no...
11-10-2018, 03:34 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
It's worse than that, there are potential MILC buyers who have already decided to not buy Sony, for whatever reason, and now that there are other options, there is virtually no chance those buyers will change their minds. Sony has had three years to convince potential buyers to buy their FF mirrorless cameras, without any competition; with Nikon and Canon now in the game, Sony's window of opportunity is rapidly closing. No one buys a FF mirrorless body without considering the lenses to go on it and Sony has nothing special to offer owners of Canon and Nikon glass.


There isn't new technology for this form factor that can grow Sony's business, it will inevitably decline in both share and volume. Management at Sony knows this as well as we do, they aren't going to keep investing in new models, they are going to maximize their return on their existing business.
The interesting thing is that sales have apparently been decent when there aren't that many lenses available for Z mount and EOS-R mount yet. People buying them are probably for the most part just using existing Canon and Nikon lenses on them with an adapter. It will take awhile before these lens catalogs are well filled out.
11-10-2018, 04:09 AM - 1 Like   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The interesting thing is that sales have apparently been decent when there aren't that many lenses available for Z mount and EOS-R mount yet. People buying them are probably for the most part just using existing Canon and Nikon lenses on them with an adapter. It will take awhile before these lens catalogs are well filled out.
In Canon's case existing lenses work no different than before and the camera comes with the adapter, so I would turn it around and ask: What the heck would make someone buy (or even worse: wait for) new mount lenses? For the fun of dropping a couple of thousand dollars alone?

And it seems Canon sees it the same way. With the 28-70/2 they offer what was not existing before. Patents for RF 14-21mm f/1.55, 12-20mm f/2.0 are following the same route. It also helps them avoid at least some cannibalization.
11-10-2018, 06:26 AM - 1 Like   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Who made video they could pack into an ILC still camera that was smaller and much more compact than earlier video monstrosities is all that matters here.

No, it's not all that matters. If it was, how did Sony and Panasonic leap ahead of Canon and become the standards for this form of camera when used for video? I believe it's because Sony and Panasonic had already been selling full ENG cameras to the professional market for quite some time so they understood the market better. On this forum, we come at this mirrorless movement from a still photography perspective. That's why we debate the incremental advantages of mirrorless vs DSLR and wonder whether those gains are worth it. For me and my use for still photography, a mirrorless doesn't really offer me much over my DSLR. The extra weight of a DSLR isn't enough to make me want to switch and I prefer an optical viewfinder over an EVF. I think this is why I'm not seeing a huge shift to mirrorless cameras among the members of my camera club. In a club with 100+ members, we have 4-5 folks shooting mirrorless and about half to three fourths of those are using Fuji. But on the video side of my world, there is a massive shift towards mirrorless cameras like the Sony a7iii and the Panasonic GH5. The reason everyone is moving to them is because there are major, major differences and advantages. Now we're not talking weight differences measured in grams. We're talking 10-20 pounds lighter. An EVF vs an optical viewfinder isn't an issue because video cameras have always had EVFs. And instead of having to spend $40,000 for a camera body and another $15,000 for a lens for a traditional video camera...you can match or exceed that video quality for 1/10th or 1/20th the price. Sure, there's cheaper all-in-one camcorders that can be used professionally, but not many of those let you use interchangeable lenses...which in turn allows you to use specialty lenses, like macros, fisheyes, or extreme telephotos. Another reason mirrorless cameras are becoming more popular is because we're a dual-media world these days due to the internet. In addition to taking still photos, newpaper photographers are being asked to shoot video for the paper's website...and videographers are being asked to shoot a few stills while out on location for posting on social media. So this is why I'm skeptical as to whether Canon or Nikon will dominate Sony in the mirrorless market in the long run. From what I'm seeing in comparisons, Canon had a chance to build a whole new camera from the ground up and they still have fallen short of the Sonys and Panasonic cameras out there. It's entirely possible that they'll catch up at some point, but so far they haven't done so.
11-10-2018, 06:40 AM   #44
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So you are saying Sony ILC video is better than Canon ILC video?
Because if it isn't your whole post is about nothing.
11-10-2018, 07:21 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
how did Sony and Panasonic leap ahead of Canon and become the standards for this form of camera when used for video?
You might want to show some evidence for your funny claims first, before rambling on with follow up claims and guesses.

Because I do believe in some degree of evidence required I go first even:
Professional Video Solutions | Captured with Canon | Canon USA
And I might add Tony Northrup: I Made a Mistake: The Canon EOS 6D Mark II is the BEST Vlogging Camera. Seriously. | Canon Rumors

For a "leap ahead" claim I expect at least 3x as many (> 200) movies shot with Panasonics cameras or lenses. Or Sony.


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