Canon starting to butcher Sony in FF mirrorless (as predicted)

normhead · 11-10-2018, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by beholder3

You might want to show some evidence for your funny claims first, before rambling on with follow up claims and guesses.

Because I do believe in some degree of evidence required I go first even:
Professional Video Solutions | Captured with Canon | Canon USA
And I might add Tony Northrup: I Made a Mistake: The Canon EOS 6D Mark II is the BEST Vlogging Camera. Seriously. | Canon Rumors

For a "leap ahead" claim I expect at least 3x as many (> 200) movies shot with Panasonics cameras or lenses. Or Sony.

Your turn.

From some blog randomly selected from a google search.
The 7 Best DSLRs/Mirrorless Cameras for Video - BorrowLenses Blog
1.Canon 5D Mark III
2.Sony Alpha a7SII
3.Nikon D810
4.Panasonic Lumix GH4
5.Canon 80D
6.Canon T6i
7.Nikon D3300

Canon in first, 3 canons, 2 Nikons, one Sony, one panasonic. I'm not seeing it.

**StiffLegged** · 11-10-2018, 09:57 AM - **2 Likes**

If getting rid of mirrors causes this amount of brouhaha, there's no way I'm getting rid of the 3 in our home (bathroom, shower room, hallway). I prefer domestic harmony.

TaoMaas · 11-10-2018, 11:29 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by beholder3

You might want to show some evidence for your funny claims first, before rambling on with follow up claims and guesses.

I can't help it if you guys don't want to listen. I said Sony had more experience in building camcorders than Canon...got ridiculed for it...then when someone posted evidence that it was true....suddenly that's irrelevant. So no, I won't waste my time trying to prove anything to you. All I'm doing is relating my first-hand observations as someone who works in broadcasting. If you want to listen, fine. If not, that's fine, too.

surfar · 11-10-2018, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by normhead

Canon in first, 3 canons, 2 Nikons, one Sony, one panasonic. I'm not seeing it.

An obsolete list,IF ever I've seen one.You might want to keep up with the hybrid capabilities of what is available in 2018 not 2014.

---------- Post added 11-11-18 at 07:05 AM ----------

Why would anyone buy CaNik for their video capability?

Youtu.be

normhead · 11-10-2018, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by TaoMaas

I can't help it if you guys don't want to listen. I said Sony had more experience in building camcorders than Canon...got ridiculed for it...then when someone posted evidence that it was true....suddenly that's irrelevant. So no, I won't waste my time trying to prove anything to you. All I'm doing is relating my first-hand observations as someone who works in broadcasting. If you want to listen, fine. If not, that's fine, too.

Originally posted by TaoMaas

I know I'm a bit of a broken record, but don't forget that a sizeable chunk of this mirrorless craze has to do with video...and that's an area where Sony has decades of experience over Canon and Nikon. I think it's way too early to be predicting the death of Sony.

So, you think that Sony has a better reputation than Canon in ILC cameras, and that is going to save Sony? That seems to be the implication. Maybe you've lived in some TV studio realty that has nothing to do with consumer cameras and that makes a difference to you, and maybe to all the other studio techs, but i doubt the bunch of you are enough to save Sony from Canon moving into MILC.

We've been hearing Canon for video for at least 10 years.

**monochrome** · 11-10-2018, 06:57 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by normhead

So, you think that Sony has a better reputation than Canon in ILC cameras, and that is going to save Sony? That seems to be the implication. Maybe you've lived in some TV studio realty that has nothing to do with consumer cameras and that makes a difference to you, and maybe to all the other studio techs, but i doubt the bunch of you are enough to save Sony from Canon moving into MILC.

We've been hearing Canon for video for at least 10 years.

At the high end, broadcast television does use Sony professional cameras. Indies do often use dSLR’s and MILC’s.

My daughter* tells me she tried to produce broadcast news with 5D’s. They liked the Canon color profile, but the videographers couldn’t pull focus as well with the ergonomics. The Canons went away, the Sonys came out of the storage closet and the togs were happy. More relaxed feature piece Producers sometimes order stringers who shoot Canon 5D’s. The network wrote a color emulator to process their Sony B-roll and eventually started processing the live feed real-time for Breaking.

My son sees sports videographers shooting Sony MILC’s using complex viewing loupes (instead of using the EVF), complex wind-shielded mikes and ‘Steadicam’ rigs at every College and High School Lacrosse game he shoots**. As complex as these rigs are it isn’t clear to him why they don’t shoot pro video cameras. (They don’t like the weight and size of the traditional video gear). He shoots a 7D / 24-70 and runs. Pro still shooter teams he knows - the first uses two bodies, one with a medium zoom and one with a 70-200 or a 300, and the second shoots a 600 on a monopod, usually APSc.

IMO there is an honest divide between how practical professionals use gear and how advanced amateurs / enthusiasts use gear (and how they think professional use it).

* Daughter was Operations Producer for a Network nightly news broadcast for ten years until last summer. Operations Producer manages the team that processes the B-roll, assists with arranging remotes (mostly the satellite feeds), and schedules the live news broadcast to the second.
** My son owns a Lacrosse Equipment retail business and shoots games to promote the business on social media.

KiloHotelphoto · 01-09-2019, 07:36 PM

[/COLOR]Why would anyone buy CaNik for their video capability?

The C200 and C300 look pretty good and then there is the C700, I can see why someone would buy Canon for their video capability.

mecrox · 01-10-2019, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by Rondec

The interesting thing is that sales have apparently been decent when there aren't that many lenses available for Z mount and EOS-R mount yet. People buying them are probably for the most part just using existing Canon and Nikon lenses on them with an adapter. It will take awhile before these lens catalogs are well filled out.

I’ve tried the Z cameras, though only in a shop with a sales person. Very nice, imho. Felt pretty good to handle. Excellent viewfinder - EVFs have come a long way. Quite small and light. The basic lenses aren’t that big or heavy and seem to have been well received. So-so AF would be my concern. I would expect a lot more than OK single-shot AF but dubious CAF/tracking at those prices. Maybe wait till gen 2 ... however, my impression is that for gen 1 Nikon have done a reasonable job albeit with room for improvement. If I had one but used something else for telephoto with good AF it would probably be a very fine combo.

**clackers** · 01-10-2019, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by mecrox

I’ve tried the Z cameras, though only in a shop with a sales person. Very nice, imho. Felt pretty good to handle. Excellent viewfinder - EVFs have come a long way. Quite small and light. The basic lenses aren’t that big or heavy and seem to have been well received. So-so AF would be my concern. I would expect a lot more than OK single-shot AF but dubious CAF/tracking at those prices. Maybe wait till gen 2 ... however, my impression is that for gen 1 Nikon have done a reasonable job albeit with room for improvement. If I had one but used something else for telephoto with good AF it would probably be a very fine combo.

From my reading, both the Nikon and the Canon are disappointing compared to their DSLRs, but of the two, yes, the Nikon disappoints least. I think I saw the heading on a YouTube video of that landscaper Thomas Heaton, something along the lines of 'Why I'm getting rid of my EOS-R after one week' or similar click-baity title.

Canon and Nikon are big enough to spend all that money on a new product pointing to the future, cop the negative feedback, and survive with extra funding to rectify some problems in Gen 2, but even then they'll hope to get four years or more on the shelves out of Gen 1, that's just recouping costs.

Our beloved Pentax is so small a similar reaction to all that development spending would probably cause Ricoh to shut it down and exit the non-industrial camera market. A small company attempting anything with big funding involved has to absolutely nail it as it did with the 645Z, K-1 or Q, it can't be a near miss like the K-01.

beholder3 · 01-11-2019, 11:45 AM

In a month or so we'll see the quarterly figures from Sony, Nikon, Canon. They will be telling a story.
And latest in springtime one quarter later we will see how it all plays out.

The whole ILC market is still shrinking and I would be surprised to hear that more people buy the new (quite overpriced) toys from these three makers than those who either wait a year or two to see how it all develops or those who own Canon/Nikon DSLRs and simply stop investing for now.

I guess down, down, down is where it is going.

11-10-2018, 06:57 PM - 1 Like	#51
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by normhead So, you think that Sony has a better reputation than Canon in ILC cameras, and that is going to save Sony? That seems to be the implication. Maybe you've lived in some TV studio realty that has nothing to do with consumer cameras and that makes a difference to you, and maybe to all the other studio techs, but i doubt the bunch of you are enough to save Sony from Canon moving into MILC. We've been hearing Canon for video for at least 10 years. At the high end, broadcast television does use Sony professional cameras. Indies do often use dSLR’s and MILC’s. My daughter* tells me she tried to produce broadcast news with 5D’s. They liked the Canon color profile, but the videographers couldn’t pull focus as well with the ergonomics. The Canons went away, the Sonys came out of the storage closet and the togs were happy. More relaxed feature piece Producers sometimes order stringers who shoot Canon 5D’s. The network wrote a color emulator to process their Sony B-roll and eventually started processing the live feed real-time for Breaking. My son sees sports videographers shooting Sony MILC’s using complex viewing loupes (instead of using the EVF), complex wind-shielded mikes and ‘Steadicam’ rigs at every College and High School Lacrosse game he shoots*. As complex as these rigs are it isn’t clear to him why they don’t shoot pro video cameras. (They don’t like the weight and size of the traditional video gear). He shoots a 7D / 24-70 and runs. Pro still shooter teams he knows - the first uses two bodies, one with a medium zoom and one with a 70-200 or a 300, and the second shoots a 600 on a monopod, usually APSc. IMO there is an honest divide between how practical professionals use gear and how advanced amateurs / enthusiasts use gear (and how they think* professional use it). * Daughter was Operations Producer for a Network nightly news broadcast for ten years until last summer. Operations Producer manages the team that processes the B-roll, assists with arranging remotes (mostly the satellite feeds), and schedules the live news broadcast to the second. ** My son owns a Lacrosse Equipment retail business and shoots games to promote the business on social media. Last edited by monochrome; 11-10-2018 at 07:17 PM.

01-10-2019, 03:03 PM	#54
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by mecrox I’ve tried the Z cameras, though only in a shop with a sales person. Very nice, imho. Felt pretty good to handle. Excellent viewfinder - EVFs have come a long way. Quite small and light. The basic lenses aren’t that big or heavy and seem to have been well received. So-so AF would be my concern. I would expect a lot more than OK single-shot AF but dubious CAF/tracking at those prices. Maybe wait till gen 2 ... however, my impression is that for gen 1 Nikon have done a reasonable job albeit with room for improvement. If I had one but used something else for telephoto with good AF it would probably be a very fine combo. From my reading, both the Nikon and the Canon are disappointing compared to their DSLRs, but of the two, yes, the Nikon disappoints least. I think I saw the heading on a YouTube video of that landscaper Thomas Heaton, something along the lines of 'Why I'm getting rid of my EOS-R after one week' or similar click-baity title. Canon and Nikon are big enough to spend all that money on a new product pointing to the future, cop the negative feedback, and survive with extra funding to rectify some problems in Gen 2, but even then they'll hope to get four years or more on the shelves out of Gen 1, that's just recouping costs. Our beloved Pentax is so small a similar reaction to all that development spending would probably cause Ricoh to shut it down and exit the non-industrial camera market. A small company attempting anything with big funding involved has to absolutely nail it as it did with the 645Z, K-1 or Q, it can't be a near miss like the K-01. Last edited by clackers; 01-10-2019 at 03:20 PM.

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11-10-2018, 09:39 AM	#46
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by beholder3 You might want to show some evidence for your funny claims first, before rambling on with follow up claims and guesses. Because I do believe in some degree of evidence required I go first even: Professional Video Solutions \| Captured with Canon \| Canon USA And I might add Tony Northrup: I Made a Mistake: The Canon EOS 6D Mark II is the BEST Vlogging Camera. Seriously. \| Canon Rumors For a "leap ahead" claim I expect at least 3x as many (> 200) movies shot with Panasonics cameras or lenses. Or Sony. Your turn. From some blog randomly selected from a google search. The 7 Best DSLRs/Mirrorless Cameras for Video - BorrowLenses Blog 1.Canon 5D Mark III 2.Sony Alpha a7SII 3.Nikon D810 4.Panasonic Lumix GH4 5.Canon 80D 6.Canon T6i 7.Nikon D3300 Canon in first, 3 canons, 2 Nikons, one Sony, one panasonic. I'm not seeing it.

11-10-2018, 09:57 AM - 2 Likes	#47
StiffLegged Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2018 Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,619	If getting rid of mirrors causes this amount of brouhaha, there's no way I'm getting rid of the 3 in our home (bathroom, shower room, hallway). I prefer domestic harmony.

11-10-2018, 11:29 AM - 1 Like	#48
TaoMaas Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Oklahoma City Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,574	Originally posted by beholder3 You might want to show some evidence for your funny claims first, before rambling on with follow up claims and guesses. I can't help it if you guys don't want to listen. I said Sony had more experience in building camcorders than Canon...got ridiculed for it...then when someone posted evidence that it was true....suddenly that's irrelevant. So no, I won't waste my time trying to prove anything to you. All I'm doing is relating my first-hand observations as someone who works in broadcasting. If you want to listen, fine. If not, that's fine, too.

11-10-2018, 05:27 PM	#50
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by TaoMaas I can't help it if you guys don't want to listen. I said Sony had more experience in building camcorders than Canon...got ridiculed for it...then when someone posted evidence that it was true....suddenly that's irrelevant. So no, I won't waste my time trying to prove anything to you. All I'm doing is relating my first-hand observations as someone who works in broadcasting. If you want to listen, fine. If not, that's fine, too. Originally posted by TaoMaas I know I'm a bit of a broken record, but don't forget that a sizeable chunk of this mirrorless craze has to do with video...and that's an area where Sony has decades of experience over Canon and Nikon. I think it's way too early to be predicting the death of Sony. So, you think that Sony has a better reputation than Canon in ILC cameras, and that is going to save Sony? That seems to be the implication. Maybe you've lived in some TV studio realty that has nothing to do with consumer cameras and that makes a difference to you, and maybe to all the other studio techs, but i doubt the bunch of you are enough to save Sony from Canon moving into MILC. We've been hearing Canon for video for at least 10 years.

01-09-2019, 07:36 PM	#52
KiloHotelphoto Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Glen Mills, PA Photos: Albums Posts: 1,030	[/COLOR]Why would anyone buy CaNik for their video capability? The C200 and C300 look pretty good and then there is the C700, I can see why someone would buy Canon for their video capability.

01-10-2019, 02:32 PM	#53
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	Originally posted by Rondec The interesting thing is that sales have apparently been decent when there aren't that many lenses available for Z mount and EOS-R mount yet. People buying them are probably for the most part just using existing Canon and Nikon lenses on them with an adapter. It will take awhile before these lens catalogs are well filled out. I’ve tried the Z cameras, though only in a shop with a sales person. Very nice, imho. Felt pretty good to handle. Excellent viewfinder - EVFs have come a long way. Quite small and light. The basic lenses aren’t that big or heavy and seem to have been well received. So-so AF would be my concern. I would expect a lot more than OK single-shot AF but dubious CAF/tracking at those prices. Maybe wait till gen 2 ... however, my impression is that for gen 1 Nikon have done a reasonable job albeit with room for improvement. If I had one but used something else for telephoto with good AF it would probably be a very fine combo.

01-11-2019, 11:45 AM	#55
beholder3 Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,112 Original Poster	In a month or so we'll see the quarterly figures from Sony, Nikon, Canon. They will be telling a story. And latest in springtime one quarter later we will see how it all plays out. The whole ILC market is still shrinking and I would be surprised to hear that more people buy the new (quite overpriced) toys from these three makers than those who either wait a year or two to see how it all develops or those who own Canon/Nikon DSLRs and simply stop investing for now. I guess down, down, down is where it is going.