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11-24-2018, 04:47 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by nzondlo Quote
Has a real full-frame mirrorless been rumored anywhere else? I saw the hubrid viewfinder patent which seemed close, but nothing that specific. What do you know!
nothing substantive, but i know that everyone in here advocating for a dslr continuum is a part of the problem for pentax... soon they will all be convinced of the virtues of the mirrorless full frame camera, but as of now they lack vision.

can you blame us pentaxians for being shell-shocked after all these hours waiting on the beach?

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11-24-2018, 05:37 AM - 1 Like   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by punkrachmaninov Quote
nothing substantive, but i know that everyone in here advocating for a dslr continuum is a part of the problem for pentax... soon they will all be convinced of the virtues of the mirrorless full frame camera, but as of now they lack vision.
I shoot Pentax DSLR gear (APS-C) and Sony mirrorless full-frame. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. It's not that members here lack vision (and that's quite an assertion to make of your fellow forum members, by the way) - it's that their vision is different to yours.

I'd certainly consider buying a Pentax full frame mirrorless, but I'd equally consider a K-3II DSLR replacement...
11-24-2018, 06:05 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I shoot Pentax DSLR gear (APS-C) and Sony mirrorless full-frame. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. It's not that members here lack vision (and that's quite an assertion to make of your fellow forum members, by the way) - it's that their vision is different to yours.

I'd certainly consider buying a Pentax full frame mirrorless, but I'd equally consider a K-3II DSLR replacement...
you can call my ego or my credibility into question if you like... #justsaying maybe from a marketing and engineering perspective the big four might be onto something... hahaha. it will be a toss up for camera of the year between the sony a7iii (a pro-sumer camera on a good day by my standards) and the very tempting (but ultimately not much better than any other aps-c camera) fuji x-t3... both are mirrorless and both are state of the art. the nikon d850 is as good as the next generation pentax full frame dslr could aspire to be, but it isn't winning camera of the year because it came out last year... it was the last truly great dslr.

aps-c dslr cameras have their merit in the size department and i suppose to a certain extent they are also still somewhat worthy for their feature set in specific situations--but as the technosexual mirrorless revolution continues, that dslr frame just keeps getting darker...

in addition to that, marketing budgets for dslr cameras on any end of the pricing spectrum will be niche at best in 2019 friend--all the regressive logic in the world isn't going to change that. do you want to put up $14 million to run a three week ad campaign promoting antiquated technology at yesterday's prices? neither does pentax. they want to market the anniversary edition k-1000 mirrorless camera. anything else is screaming into a chasm...

if black friday pricing doesn't tell you something is up, then clearly i cannot convince you. frankly, i maintain that all of us multiple camera owners won't be convinced until we chop off the arm--we are going to have to have it in our hands... only once we look through the first ever truly useful and not distracting hybrid viewfinder system will we be hastily ridding ourselves of our old pentax cameras... maybe you'll even manage to rid yourself of that sony a7ii you're unfortunately rocking.

---------- Post added 11-24-18 at 07:23 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by punkrachmaninov Quote
nothing substantive, but i know that everyone in here advocating for a dslr continuum is a part of the problem for pentax... soon they will all be convinced of the virtues of the mirrorless full frame camera, but as of now they lack vision.

can you blame us pentaxians for being shell-shocked after all these hours waiting on the beach?
oh yeah, an addendum...

sony will be relatively loose with the pricing of their global shutter capable sensor technology on their next generation of pxw-fs__ series cameras... they are going to have to initiate us impoverished fs users with red-esque features if they are going to continue to drive Innovation. this will cause red to innovate their bit depth. the sensors listed won't end up causing a full frame race in the existing super-35 "expensive" camera market, so the only options are the likes of panasonic and pentax... two companies with historical preference for pushing the envelope with their flagship. sony's own a-mount line might see an unlikely revival, but it is more than likely that these sensors will be in the a7siii and a7riv, respectively... if you ask me to speculate, these sensors are going into the panos and they are going to make canon and nikon wish they had released their pro-featured mirrorless cameras first. anyone else want some?

Last edited by BigMackCam; 11-24-2018 at 08:13 AM. Reason: Keeping it friendly
11-24-2018, 06:34 AM - 1 Like   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by punkrachmaninov Quote
they want to market the anniversary edition k-1000 mirrorless camera. anything else is screaming into a chasm...
I'll check in with you next year re that anniversay edition K-1000 mirrorless. I think you'll be waiting rather longer than that for it, but I could be wrong

QuoteOriginally posted by punkrachmaninov Quote
only once we look through the first ever truly useful and not distracting hybrid viewfinder system will we be hastily ridding ourselves of our old pentax cameras...
I've long said that a good hybrid viewfinder would be a significant and important development - the best of both worlds. And I'd probably buy a Pentax with such an arrangement. But I doubt you'd see everyone hastily selling off their Pentax DSLRs. Some would, for sure, but not the mass exodus you describe, IMHO.

QuoteOriginally posted by punkrachmaninov Quote
maybe you'll even manage to rid yourself of that sony a7ii you're unfortunately rocking.
There's nothing unfortunate about it, and no need for you to describe it that way. It was, as with all of my equipment, a carefully thought out choice - in this case, for adapted lens work on a reasonable budget, and it has been excellent for that. So I won't be getting rid of it for some time

11-24-2018, 06:58 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I'll check in with you next year re that anniversay edition K-1000 mirrorless. I think you'll be waiting rather longer than that for it, but I could be wrong



I've long said that a good hybrid viewfinder would be a significant and important development - the best of both worlds. And I'd probably buy a Pentax with such an arrangement. But I doubt you'd see everyone hastily selling off their Pentax DSLRs. Some would, for sure, but not the mass exodus you describe, IMHO.



There's nothing unfortunate about it, and no need for you to describe it that way. It was, as with all of my equipment, a carefully thought out choice - in this case, for adapted lens work on a reasonable budget, and it has been excellent for that. So I won't be getting rid of it for some time
well you started it... lol

perhaps you were a trifle jittery on the ol' shutter with the suggestion that i might be some sort of charlatan, but that's just my opinion...

honestly, look at the pricing... they only have one more camera to slash the price of: the k-1ii. tried ordering one in Canada 3 months ago (now i am glad that i waited) and they were saying limited to no stock with a wait. currently the only pentax cameras available at national retailers in canada are ordered directly from the warehouse. smaller camera shops aren't even keeping stock. something is in the air...
11-24-2018, 07:10 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by punkrachmaninov Quote
well you started it... lol

perhaps you were a trifle jittery on the ol' shutter with the suggestion that i might be some sort of charlatan, but that's just my opinion...
Where did I suggest you were a charlatan?

All I've done is respond respectfully to several of your posts where you present things as irrefutable fact - what people want, what Pentax DSLR owners will do, why Pentax must go mirrorless, why members here have no vision etc. - and reposition those points as your opinions rather than facts.

And I've never been critical of your equipment choices, nor those of anyone else in this community.
11-24-2018, 07:33 AM - 5 Likes   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by punkrachmaninov Quote
nothing substantive, but i know that everyone in here advocating for a dslr continuum is a part of the problem for pentax... soon they will all be convinced of the virtues of the mirrorless full frame camera, but as of now they lack vision.

can you blame us pentaxians for being shell-shocked after all these hours waiting on the beach?
This is simply untrue on at least two levels.

First, it's the mirrorless advocates that lack the vision to see the inferiority of their stripped-down cameras for some categories of photography and some categories of photographers. Just become one person loves one style of camera over another does not imply all people will love that style of camera. For some photographers, mirrorless offers only headaches, literally!

Second, mirrorless advocates mistakenly assume yesterday's growth trend implies tomorrow's dominance and tomorrow's assumed dominance implies the eventual extinction of alternatives. If their logic about growth, dominance, and extinction were actually true, then no one would have any interchangeable lens cameras today because smartphones would have dominated and destroyed standalone cameras. (The truth is that smartphones have not even destroyed compact cameras!)

That said, the ultimate solution is a hybrid OVF/EVF of which there are at least four solution architectures (viewfinder reflex mirror, internal projector, merged light-path prism, and lightpipe-display-panel focusing screen). That will provide the best of both worlds and even if a hybrid costs more, it's clear that many photographers are the type of person willing to pay more to get better, more advanced, or more functional equipment.
11-24-2018, 09:04 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
This is simply untrue on at least two levels.

First, it's the mirrorless advocates that lack the vision to see the inferiority of their stripped-down cameras for some categories of photography and some categories of photographers. Just become one person loves one style of camera over another does not imply all people will love that style of camera. For some photographers, mirrorless offers only headaches, literally!

Second, mirrorless advocates mistakenly assume yesterday's growth trend implies tomorrow's dominance and tomorrow's assumed dominance implies the eventual extinction of alternatives. If their logic about growth, dominance, and extinction were actually true, then no one would have any interchangeable lens cameras today because smartphones would have dominated and destroyed standalone cameras. (The truth is that smartphones have not even destroyed compact cameras!)

That said, the ultimate solution is a hybrid OVF/EVF of which there are at least four solution architectures (viewfinder reflex mirror, internal projector, merged light-path prism, and lightpipe-display-panel focusing screen). That will provide the best of both worlds and even if a hybrid costs more, it's clear that many photographers are the type of person willing to pay more to get better, more advanced, or more functional equipment.
*reluctantly agrees with P-R-O-G-R-E-S-S... lol

---------- Post added 11-24-18 at 10:09 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Where did I suggest you were a charlatan?

All I've done is respond respectfully to several of your posts where you present things as irrefutable fact - what people want, what Pentax DSLR owners will do, why Pentax must go mirrorless, why members here have no vision etc. - and reposition those points as your opinions rather than facts.

And I've never been critical of your equipment choices, nor those of anyone else in this community.
well that doesn't surprise me mikey... you seem to have an affinity for holding onto redundant camera bodies, something i can absolutely respect (often to my own fiscal detriment). perhaps you can explain your decisions to us crazy mirroless kids further, because i don't see it...!? like, no seriously, i can't see much at all because it's only 24mp and we are hurdling towards 2019... the standard is 36mp, oh wait, that was 2016!?


Last edited by punkrachmaninov; 11-24-2018 at 09:09 AM.
11-24-2018, 09:10 AM - 1 Like   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by punkrachmaninov Quote
*reluctantly agrees with P-R-O-G-R-E-S-S... lol
I'm glad you finally admit that pure mirrorless was a big step backward.

The lack of an OVF in cheap point-n-shoots and video cameras may have been a necessary evil, but it certainly was not progress for stills photography!
11-24-2018, 09:20 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
I'm glad you finally admit that pure mirrorless was a big step backward.

The lack of an OVF in cheap point-n-shoots and video cameras may have been a necessary evil, but it certainly was not progress for stills photography!
lol oh my goodness... you guys are all missing the mirrorless boat, aren't you?
11-24-2018, 09:24 AM - 3 Likes   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by punkrachmaninov Quote
well that doesn't surprise me mikey... you seem to have an affinity for holding onto redundant camera bodies, something i can absolutely respect (often to my own fiscal detriment). perhaps you can explain your decisions to us crazy mirroless kids further, because i don't see it...!? like, no seriously, i can't see much at all because it's only 24mp and we are hurdling towards 2019... the standard is 36mp, oh wait, that was 2016!?
It's just "Mike", btw

The first Pentax DSLR I owned from new was a 14.6MP K-7, long since sold, after which I bought a 16MP K-5 just like the one you shoot, and which I still own. From there, I moved onto the 24MP K-3 and K-3II.

I bought the 10MP Samsung GX-10 much later because I liked the look of K10D images I'd seen, and the two cameras are essentially the same. I haven't been disappointed - the CCD sensor has a wonderful response that shows through in a lot of images. And whilst 10MP isn't a lot, it's plenty for the reproduction sizes I need.

I bought my Hasselblad HV kit "just because". At 24MP full-frame, it has the same pixel density as my Samsung GX-10, and produces fantastic photos.

I bought my A7 MkII both as a backup body to use with the lenses I have for the A-mount HV, and (primarily) to shoot the many L39, M39, M42, K-mount and other manual lenses I own. The pixel density of the A7 MkII is the same as my GX-10 and HV, so I'm all good there.

After down-sampling to the reproduction sizes I'm interested in, most of the time you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a 42MP full frame image and a 10MP APS-C image.

My equipment choices aren't driven by current and future specifications, what's possible technically, what might be in vogue, or what's considered by other people to be "standard", but by what I personally like and need

Last edited by BigMackCam; 11-24-2018 at 09:33 AM.
11-24-2018, 09:52 AM - 1 Like   #27
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If there is to be some sort of techno-geek Pentax mirrorless (and that would not surprise me, but I don't expect it) I don't think it will be labeled D-1000. That was too simple and pedestrian a camera to use as the DNA for Pentax' first MILC. I rather suspect it would be some sort of play on the LX, especially if there is some sort of distinguishing technological breakthrough such as the Hybrid VF (similar to OTF metering).Something like D-LX, where 'D' is always for HVF / MILC cameras or CX,where C represents 100 and a new mount.

Last edited by monochrome; 11-24-2018 at 11:15 AM.
11-24-2018, 09:55 AM - 2 Likes   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by punkrachmaninov Quote
lol oh my goodness... you guys are all missing the mirrorless boat, aren't you?
Some of us have boarded the mirrorless boat, found the accommodations and amenities to be unimpressive or inferior and then returned to the better features of the DSLR boat. And some of us have two different boats and find both of them useful but for distinctly different kinds of voyages.

What Mike and I really object to is the absurd logic that just because some people really like one boat does not mean that all people will like that boat or that that boat is the only boat that can exist.

Mirrorless may someday be more popular than DSLR but then I hear McDonalds it really popular, too, but that's also a boat that I'll also be missing.
11-24-2018, 09:56 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by punkrachmaninov Quote
honestly, look at the pricing... they only have one more camera to slash the price of: the k-1ii.
Interesting enough, that is Pentax's only current FF camera.

However, you failed to notice that the K-70 is still out there.
QuoteOriginally posted by punkrachmaninov Quote
something is in the air...

Last edited by reh321; 11-24-2018 at 09:58 AM. Reason: K-70 line
11-24-2018, 10:04 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
It's just "Mike", btw

The first Pentax DSLR I owned from new was a 14.6MP K-7, long since sold, after which I bought a 16MP K-5 just like the one you shoot, and which I still own. From there, I moved onto the 24MP K-3 and K-3II.

I bought the 10MP Samsung GX-10 much later because I liked the look of K10D images I'd seen, and the two cameras are essentially the same. I haven't been disappointed - the CCD sensor has a wonderful response that shows through in a lot of images. And whilst 10MP isn't a lot, it's plenty for the reproduction sizes I need.

I bought my Hasselblad HV kit "just because". At 24MP full-frame, it has the same pixel density as my Samsung GX-10, and produces fantastic photos.

I bought my A7 MkII both as a backup body to use with the lenses I have for the A-mount HV, and (primarily) to shoot the many L39, M39, M42, K-mount and other manual lenses I own. The pixel density of the A7 MkII is the same as my GX-10 and HV, so I'm all good there.

After down-sampling to the reproduction sizes I'm interested in, most of the time you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a 42MP full frame image and a 10MP APS-C image.

My equipment choices aren't driven by current and future specifications, what's possible technically, what might be in vogue, or what's considered by other people to be "standard", but by what I personally like and need
oh right... i forgot. you are a blad guy. now it all makes sense.

---------- Post added 11-24-18 at 11:07 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Interesting enough, that is Pentax's only current FF camera.

However, you failed to notice that the K-70 is still out there.
no, i'm aware of the k-70... currently they have three various and still slightly warm bodies available on the slab at the warehouse... prefer to buy a modern camera for this year's upgrade cycle.
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