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04-18-2019, 06:57 AM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
So will it be "more needed features or "more un-needed features".
.
Needs are specific to person.


QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Cluttering up your viewfinder is not necessarily a good thing. It needs to be shown to be a good thing.
.
Features like magnifying are not cluttering the viewfinder any way. When you press magnify button EVF goes full-screen mode, absolutely no icons.

04-18-2019, 07:00 AM   #137
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QuoteQuote:
I don't have a clue about the demographics of Flickr, but among students (I was a photo technician at an art and photography school till the end of 2017, and taught darkroom and studio photography) I never once heard anybody referring to their Flickr, Instagram was super common, WordPress was also very common. and everybody had Facebook. I wasn't aware of anybody who used Flickr.
Could we have breakdown of how many students you actually queried on the subject and what their storage needs were? For photography, I'm not understanding what Instagram and facebook actually have to do with the topic.

QuoteQuote:
I am a registered user of Flickr, have been for fifteen years or so, I haven't used them since 2012 - just checked, I can still log in.
You do realize some might find this tad confusing.
I know phone photography users who use instagram. DSLR and high end camera users, not so much. At one point in my life I had to open an Instagram account. Once the actual purpose for which I opened it was accomplished I never touched it again.
Why is that relevant to anything?
Why do we care bout your personal opinion of flickr, or mine?

And where's my quote on your reference to NPD. Are you going to admit you actually didn't find any data, just a marketing press releases?
Or are you going to further deflect by telling us you didn't like Google plus.
Do you have data or don't you to support the "fact" you posted?

If you can't answer that one how about this one.

What do you think is a more accurate data source.
Data derived from 3.5 million posts a day... or the Sony marketing department?
It sure looks like you're going with the Sony marketing department. Do you honestly believe when marketers put put press releases, they are under any obligation to present that information in an unbiased way?

QuoteQuote:
Owning both systems I really don't even see why people care, each is good for different things, it's not a better/worse situation.
I don't care more than you don't care.
To me the data I presented raises question and I'm inquisitive. There's something going on that is way beyond straight market share.
If you're not maybe you're in the wrong thread.

Last edited by normhead; 04-18-2019 at 07:33 AM.
04-18-2019, 07:22 AM   #138
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I created Flickr my account in 2017 but I have been using Pentax gear since 1997. Some of my friends do not have Flickr account. They send photos to friends over WhatsApp. I think Flickr leaves out lot of photographers.
04-18-2019, 07:40 AM   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxfall Quote
I created Flickr my account in 2017 but I have been using Pentax gear since 1997. Some of my friends do not have Flickr account. They send photos to friends over WhatsApp. I think Flickr leaves out lot of photographers.
flicker doesn't leave out anybody, people just use what they're comfortable with, and that's not always flickr. But the percentage of accomplished photographers on flickr is pretty high, with pros and advanced amateurs very easy to find. I have to admit, it's probably not all that popular with teenagers, but then, neither are high end cameras.
It's disappointing when you find something you find interesting that so many people would rather tell you why the data isn't good, with speculation, than actually look at the numbers.

It's pretty clear, if the numbers don't support what you believe, attack the source. A more intelligent approach would be to say "that's interesting, I'm going to keep that file open and see if related information that can shed more light on the subject presents itself in the future."

We saw the same type of response when those German guys did a repeatable auto focus test, and Nikon and Canon weren't as good as we've been led to believe, and Pentax wasn't as bad, in fact was in first place on some parts fo the graph. The closed minded attacked the experiment. The more open minded said "why has everyone been lying to us?"

Attacking data doesn't make you smart, it makes you closed minded.

04-18-2019, 08:35 AM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
IMO there is already too much info in the VF frame. I don’t want to look at it, or into my viewfinder at all. I want to look through my viewfinder at the actual reality. I don’t even have the histogram turned on for the LCD. And I don’t believe - based on my experience with film cameras - that I could ‘see’ actual DoF in any useful way in a viewfinder either. If I can’t ‘see’ it on the 3+” LCD how would I see it in a .7x FF EVF.
One of the first things I did with my X-T1 when I started using it was turning off as much rubbish as I could in the viewfinder.
The dancing lights are quite a distraction.

Last edited by MarkJerling; 04-18-2019 at 09:43 PM. Reason: Minor profanity removed.
04-18-2019, 01:41 PM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Could we have breakdown of how many students you actually queried on the subject and what their storage needs were? For photography, I'm not understanding what Instagram and facebook actually have to do with the topic.
.
About 300 students over a few years, in the most part they were needing portfolios, to break into the market, and wanting to build a following - people use these applications due to their ubiquity, and their social media components - they both have well over a billion users and have good business reach. That's not many students admittedly, but they were looking to break into the industry, so it's a reflection of what students who are trying to break into the photography industry are looking at these days.

What they have to do with the topic is an example of your argument - you present Flickr as the be all and end all of web photography - people say it's not, you say it's big, I point out that Flickr now is actually pretty small, now you say that websites have nothing to do with the topic right.

Flickr is old, it's way past it's best by (which was around 2005), it has no video-centricity, which makes arguments about camera types irrelevant, very few people use it now compared to other platforms. That's why statistics from that platform aren't any more relevant than any body else's opinion.

Many people abandoned Flickr when they went to a paid model, Flickr very definitely doesn't reflect the average camera user, it certainly doesn't reflect professional users, or those who value video in a camera (which some would say is the point of mirrorless).

Further more, in answer to this topic, Sonys full frame sales alone is sufficient argument that there has been a good uptake of full frame mirrorless cameras in the market. (FF mirrorless adoption super slow - spoiler, it's not) - I don't even personally like Sony cameras due to their ergonomics, but you'd have to be an idiot not to realise that they are extremely successful.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote

To me the data I presented raises question and I'm inquisitive. There's something going on that is way beyond straight market share.
If you're not maybe you're in the wrong thread.
I'm plenty inquisitive, sadly I also studied statistics (which makes newspapers more or less funny depending on the day). The thing that's going on with Flickr stats is called statistical skew - the people who disagree with you are trying to find the source of the skew, whether that's demographics, what camera's are used for, paid vs unpaid accounts, whatever. I'd personally be interested in identifying the source of the skew, I suspect it would be more complex than simple age based demographics on different platforms.

That said, Yeah, good point, as I don't really care there's no real point in reading this thread further, it's kinda silly reading vociferous opinions from people on the interwebz. I'm gonna unsubscribe from this thread now and get on with my day - I've presented my opinion, like it or don't.

Last edited by sqrrl; 04-18-2019 at 01:43 PM. Reason: word in the wrong place & spelling
04-18-2019, 02:10 PM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by sqrrl Quote



NPD Group by the way are the company who just about everybody uses to track market trends (not just in cameras).


NPD still cannot know the real camera sales numbers. The camera companies don't divulge them.

They will not even have sampling, which is a legitimate method.

They will just ask selected retailers (who knows who they are) to supply voluntary data (which in many cases breaches commercial confidentiality) and extrapolate.



04-18-2019, 02:18 PM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
One of the first things I did with my X-T1 when I started using it was turning off as much rubbish as I could in the viewfinder.
The dancing lights are quite a distraction.
I had to check my A7 MkII to see what info I have set up in the viewfinder... Thin bottom area showing same exposure info as a DSLR... Thin top area showing additional info such as aspect ratio, RAW / JPEG setting, battery status etc. Neither of those overlay the image view in any way. Then, just the plain old image view - no guide lines or overlayed information, except for the live histogram (my favourite feature) in the bottom right corner...


Last edited by BigMackCam; 04-21-2019 at 11:59 PM.
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