[normhead]

Was it the R or RP model? They use two different evfs. The evf on the RP is horrible, but the R model is much better and easier on the eyes.

At least with an OVF they can't bump you up a model because you can't use the lower cost one.

[pentaxfall]

My only experience with EVF comes from Z7. Initially i found it too bright some what unnatural. I was able to over come these. For me what is shown in EVF is less important than the image produced by camera.


EVF shines in MF. We can magnify and then do MF. There is also split-pane view. Each pane has seperate magnifiers that can be positioned anywhere. Bright viewfinder helps in MF in low light.


DOF preview is more pronounced.

I think OVF gives more natural view compared to EVF. But EVF has potential to give more features. I like EVF because it gives more tools or features.

[normhead]

My only experience with EVF comes from Z7. Initially i found it too bright some what unnatural. I was able to over come these. For me what is shown in EVF is less important than the image produced by camera.


EVF shines in MF. We can magnify and then do MF. There is also split-pane view. Each pane has seperate magnifiers that can be positioned anywhere. Bright viewfinder helps in MF in low light.


DOF preview is more pronounced.

I think OVF gives more natural view compared to EVF. But EVF has potential to give more features. I like EVF because it gives more tools or features.

All secondary to the purpose of a viewfinder, which has gone 50 years without needing those things. No one ever mentions the possible problem of viewfinder distraction, and the resulting missed shots because of it.

So will it be "more needed features or "more un-needed features". It makes a difference. Cluttering up your viewfinder is not necessarily a good thing. It needs to be shown to be a good thing.

Given the Sony numbers on flickr stats, it's not clear an EVF helps or hinders. If anything , they suggest it hinders.

[ThorSanchez]

Given the Sony numbers on flickr stats, it's not clear an EVF helps or hinders. If anything , they suggest it hinders.

I think it's a very tenuous connection between flickr numbers and people supposedly not liking mirrorless cameras and EVFs. There are a myriad of causal factors that are reflected in number of posts on a certain photo-sharing platform, from demographics to price to features to country of origin and on and on.

If I had to guess I'd say mirrorless cameras are under-represented on flickr because flickr is used by an older demographic raised on SLRs and OVFs, along with the smartphones everyone old and young has in their pockets. Also mirrorless cameras have made significant strides during the last few years, at the same time almost all camera manufacturers have shifted to low-volume, high-price models. So there are many more cameras from the pre-2015 era than the time since, and the earlier time period was dominated by SLRs with OVFs.

[normhead]

I think it's a very tenuous connection between flickr numbers and people supposedly not liking mirrorless cameras and EVFs. There are a myriad of causal factors that are reflected in number of posts on a certain photo-sharing platform, from demographics to price to features to country of origin and on and on.

If I had to guess I'd say mirrorless cameras are under-represented on flickr because flickr is used by an older demographic raised on SLRs and OVFs, along with the smartphones everyone old and young has in their pockets. Also mirrorless cameras have made significant strides during the last few years, at the same time almost all camera manufacturers have shifted to low-volume, high-price models. So there are many more cameras from the pre-2015 era than the time since, and the earlier time period was dominated by SLRs with OVFs.

You go with what you have until you have something better.
Which is why I said "Given the Sony numbers on flickr stats, it's not clear an EVF helps or hinders. If anything , they suggest it hinders."
That means, "you can't make any conclusions but some preliminary data suggest it hinders". I didn't realize I need to be so technical.

The sentiment remains the same. The number of people shooting with Sony cameras doesn't translate into a larger presence on Flickr. And many of us have bought new cameras since the A7 came out in 2013. Many of those DSLR shooters on flicker are not shooting with cameras older than Sony mirrorless. Most of us had the choice to go Sony and passed, for our last camera purchase. You should really try and be more objective in your fact selection. Looking at the last 5 years since the release of the A7, more people have bought DSLRs than have bought mirrorless.

Yesterday 105 A7r users uploaded 431 items.
https://www.flickr.com/cameras/sony/ilce-9/

119 K-1 users uploaded 1,845 images.
https://www.flickr.com/cameras/ricoh/imaging_company_ltd._pentax_k-1/

The most used Sony camera the A6000 had 533 users uploading 19,796 images.
A6000, 24.3 MP, and comparable to a K-3 not a K-1

I know it may be hard to interpret exactly what those numbers mean, but the early guess, if I were designing further research is that most Sony user aren't as demanding of their gear at least in terms of resolution than Pentax users and probably in other ways as well, with Pentax having a much higher percentage looking for premium quality images. Especially since for this resolution it looks like there are more K-1 users than Sony A7r users.

With Pentax the most popular camera is the K-1, their most expensive offering. And the A6000 which leads the charge for Sony with apex. 600 users well Canon 6D 1212, Canon 5Dmkiii 1509, you have to go all the way down to a Rebel T6 to find numbers like the A6000 in canon.

The D750 has 1218 users.
The 850 has 555 users. 4 Nikons have better numbers than A6000.

We re talking here about what people use, not what people have bought.

There are more K-1 users and images uploaded than D850 or A7r users.
I'm seeing something here, even if you don't.

The legacy thing is hogwash. We've almost all bought new cameras since the A7 was released. We could have switched. And in fact many only bought A7s because there was no Pentax FF alternative at the time. We used to here from people who wanted to use their FA ltd.s om FF as they were designed to be use. Sony has lost that part of the market.

[ThorSanchez]

You go with what you have until you have something better.
Which is why I said "Given the Sony numbers on flickr stats, it's not clear an EVF helps or hinders. If anything , they suggest it hinders."
That means, "you can't make any conclusions but some preliminary data suggest it hinders". I didn't realize I need to be so technical.

That's really the takeaway here. We don't have good data, so we can't form any substantive conclusions. When we're in that situation people tend to fall back on their guts, which are heavily influenced by any number of things that aren't the ground truth, but rather opinion. Until we get better data we cannot conclude that there is a causal link between who posts on Flickr and who uses a camera with an electronic viewfinder.

[normhead]

That's really the takeaway here. We don't have good data, so we can't form any substantive conclusions. When we're in that situation people tend to fall back on their guts, which are heavily influenced by any number of things that aren't the ground truth, but rather opinion. Until we get better data we cannot conclude that there is a causal link between who posts on Flickr and who uses a camera with an electronic viewfinder.

That's for further research and you're leading where that research might go. The substantive conclusion is that on flickr there are more K-1 users that A7r users and that they post 3 times as many images per user.

Speculation as to why that is needs further research, we have no numbers at all. Pentax users are older? There's nothing to support that. You can't throw out the numbers you have because you don't know exactly what they mean. Not only that I know of no other website that would provide numbers you could use to even analyze, making these numbers the standard for camera useage.

I'd be happy to have more refined numbers with more data points, but, if it's all you have, it's all you have.
That doesn't give you the right to declare it non-substantive. It's non-conclusive and open to interpretation, but the numbers are collected impartially and without prejudice, which is more than we can say for a lot of the numbers bandied about here.

Most of the time we get opinions based on pretty much nothing. This is real numbers polling real people. 100 people may (or may not) be representative, but it's 100 times more representative than one person's opinion, or objections.

I always find it amusing when some guy comes on and says, the results of polling 200 people doesn't count, because I as one person say so.

So what I'm saying is this is good data. We may not know what it means, but the scientific approach is more research to further define what it means. But as data, it is what it is. There's nothing "good " or "bad" about it.

---

Last edited by normhead; 04-17-2019 at 02:05 PM.

[Fcsnt54]

At least with an OVF they can't bump you up a model because you can't use the lower cost one.

That is true, with the ovf though it is the use of mirrors or pentaprism, the view converge/ magnification, and if there are overlays or what is viewed in the ovf layout. Last but not least the mirror mechanism the dampening force to prevent mirror shock, if they allow mirror lockup, mirror speed. Ovfs have their price cuts as well, luckily as a brand Pentax generally have been great across the line.

[MarkJerling]

Was it the R or RP model? They use two different evfs. The evf on the RP is horrible, but the R model is much better and easier on the eyes.

Not sure, sorry. But, going by the photos if I search online, it looked more like the R - with the higher bump which makes it look almost as if there should be a prism in there.

[sqrrl]

According to NPD Group, in 2018 Sony actually sold more full frame cameras than any other camera maker full stop. Nikon and Canon following closely. That is full frame, not mirrorless. As all of Sony's current models are mirrorless I think it's safe to say that they probably lead the pack in mirrorless full frame also (hearkening back to the title of this thread).

I don't have a clue about the demographics of Flickr, but among students (I was a photo technician at an art and photography school till the end of 2017, and taught darkroom and studio photography) I never once heard anybody referring to their Flickr, Instagram was super common, WordPress was also very common. and everybody had Facebook. I wasn't aware of anybody who used Flickr.

NPD Group by the way are the company who just about everybody uses to track market trends (not just in cameras).

I personally have used just about every camera on the market over the past 10 years before I stopped being a photo technician, they are all good, and each has a particular thing they do very well. I own two Pentax cameras with OVF's and I own four m43 cameras which I use for a range of things (I also own a bunch of film cameras and other tat).

The Pentax's excel at low light, especially in poor conditions, they are also very good for product on the rare occasions i do that. I also like the ergonomics.

The M43 cameras I use for infrared (I have a GX1 permanently modified and it works very well for that purpose), I use them for video, my needs are pretty simple, so my gh2 and my unconverted gx1 (also my cell phone) suit my needs. My Oly em5 is just fun to play with and I picked it up very cheap with a 20mm on it (cheaper than I could find a 20mm 1.7 alone for).

I don't use the EVF a great deal unless in very bright light, generally I use the rear LCD and touch focus, it's a totally different workflow to what i use for Pentax, not better or worse, just different. For video I generally use a tripod and an external monitor for anything where quality really matters, so the EVF is pretty irrelevant to me, though they are good enough to take photos and edge detection makes it easy to focus when zoomed in. Incidentally with most decent brands you can turn off screen clutter just like you can with the rear screen on a Pentax.

My Pentax's get their rear screen just turned off ~%90 of the time - my mirrorless cameras get their EVF's turned off ~%90 of the time, to me those things are useful occasionally, but mainly irrelevant.

If I could get one camera that worked really well for everything I do I'd sell all of my cameras and go with that, fortunately for my bank balance that camera doesn't exist, and my needs are met by the cameras and lenses I own.

Incidentally with regards to astro, I have never used any camera (with any viewfinder technology) with which I could auto-focus reliably on a star, or which I could use the view finder to focus on stars, I take test shots to check my focus instead.

[ThorSanchez]

Most of the time we get opinions based on pretty much nothing.

Here we're getting to the root of the problem. We form opinions based on pretty much nothing, and then go look for data (any data) that supports it. If we find some that support our flimsily-constructed opinion we declare it to be the best we have, and go to bed confident that we were right all along. When we really don't know much of anything.

[normhead]

Here we're getting to the root of the problem. We form opinions based on pretty much nothing, and then go look for data (any data) that supports it. If we find some that support our flimsily-constructed opinion we declare it to be the best we have, and go to bed confident that we were right all along. When we really don't know much of anything.

The worst is we can't find out. I would like to find out more about the flickr data, after your comment I thought I'd try and find the age of the first 10 owners of each, can't do it.

---------- Post added 04-17-19 at 08:34 PM ----------

You need a link for that.
October 2018 Tech Trends: Mirrorless Cameras Taking Share in Digital Imaging - Digital Imaging Reporter

The link I found doesn't look anything like what you're reporting.

My reading is they are down at the bottom at about 20% as of July 2018.

[normhead]

I don't have a clue about the demographics of Flickr, but among students (I was a photo technician at an art and photography school till the end of 2017, and taught darkroom and studio photography) I never once heard anybody referring to their Flickr, I

Really> 87 million registered users, 3.5 million uploads a day and you haven't herd of them. Is that a comment on them or you?

Here educate yourself.
https://expandedramblings.com/index.php/flickr-stats/

By the way, the fact that Sony might be ahead in FF sales, given that Nikon was ahead shortly after christmas, means Sony's FF market share is probably less than 32% of the market, still a long way from even the majority of sales. None of the reports quoted is from NPD itself, all are marketing releases or reports of marketing releases. I don't read marketing releases, which are written to make whoever releases them look good, unless the original data are included. I like to look at the information and draw the conclusions I think are relevant not what Sony's marketing department thinks is relevant.

[monochrome]

I shoot manual focus on my K-1. I don’t have critical focus issues or exposure issues that an EVF could assist with. The truth in my case isn’t so much that I don’t want an EVF as it is that I don’t need an EVF. In circumstances cited as proof that an EVF has an advantage over an OVF I can use the articulating K-1 (or KP) LCD at least as effectively - if not more effectively - than I could an EVF. Of course I shoot waist-level or chin-level with the LCD, or use a tripod or monopod (sometimes with an an LCD loupe)*, but to me those are situational compromises rather forcing a complete system change to solve situational challenges.

* Technique versus technology

[sqrrl]

You might want to look up a dictionary definition of the word 'demographics' - it doesn't mean what you think it does.

I am a registered user of Flickr, have been for fifteen years or so, I haven't used them since 2012 - just checked, I can still log in.

32% of full frame wouldn't be a bad figure, considering that the other major players are late to the mirrorless party. and that's 32% of a market with more than two players.

Owning both systems I really don't even see why people care, each is good for different things, it's not a better/worse situation.