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04-19-2019, 02:10 PM - 1 Like   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by mjkelly62 Quote
Is it me but it seems as if Pentax is increasingly being neglected when it comes to news and reviews in camera magazines and online sources. For instance, the most recent Digital Camera World magazine in the UK featured a review of 70-200mm lenses for a variety of camera brands but Pentax were conspicuous by their absence from the 8 lenses reviewed. Only Nikon, Canon and Sony compatable lenses featured. Moreover, it seems that third-party lens manufacturers Tamron and Sigma no longer seem to offer Pentax compatable lenses among their range, especially when it comes to new lenses that come along.
I fear for the Pentax brand if this trend continues.
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If the brand dies it dies. No big deal. Bigger, more well known and brands with more history behind them have died and we are still here taking photos. There will always be some brand to fill the void.

04-19-2019, 02:44 PM - 1 Like   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
My advice would be, don't fear for the brand. It may not be as widespread and prolific as Nikon, Canon, Sony etc., but neither is Leica, and they're doing just fine
Except when their agency tried to have them run this in China:

04-19-2019, 02:55 PM - 2 Likes   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Dude. The Tokina Opera 50mm f/1.4 FF is acknowledged as a co-design variant of the Pentax-designed and manufactured HD Pentax-D FA* 50mm f/1.4 SDM AW. We know Pentax exclusively designed the optics and process technology. Tokina designed - well - they won’t say what part they did. Maybe they just paid money. Apparently both lenses share the AF motor. The Tokina lacks superior Pentax coating technology so call it a rebadge of the Pentax lens..

So - lots of? How many? What percent of current-catalog Pentax lenses is a rebadge?

Really - name them all. Here’s a start.
  1. HD Pentax-D FA 15-30mm f/2.8 SDM WR = Tamron 2015
  2. HD Pentax-D FA 24-70mm f/2.8 SDM WR = Tamron 2016
  3. SMC Pentax-DA 18-270mm f3.5-6.3ED SDM = Tamron 2012
  4. ?
4. smc Pentax-DA 12-24mm f/4 ED AL [IF] uses the optical formula of Tokina AT-X 12-24mm f/4 Pro DX (licensed from Tokina).

That's all. Four lenses among 42, i.e. 9.5%.
04-19-2019, 03:03 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
If the brand dies it dies. No big deal. Bigger, more well known and brands with more history behind them have died and we are still here taking photos. There will always be some brand to fill the void.
Exactly!

None of us wants the brand to die, and frankly, I really don't think it will. But in the unlikely event it should, there'd be a plentiful market in used Pentax cameras and lenses for years to come - so no lack of supplies for those like me who'd choose to keep shooting Pentax. And whilst we'd all like to believe otherwise, most of us don't need anything more capable than a K-3 / K-3II and/or K-1/K-1II. Heck, some of us are actively shooting with older gear because we like the image quality and it still does nearly everything we need...

04-19-2019, 03:17 PM - 1 Like   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I've seen wine tasting experts able to tell the name and year of a wine, but I haven't met anyone looking at prints on a wall saying "that's a Tamron 24-70" or "that's a Nikkor 24-120 f4 G" or "that's a Canon 24-105 L".
I think that says it all!
04-19-2019, 04:32 PM - 1 Like   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kelvin 5500 Quote
Typical U.S street price is only 10% more for the Pentax branded lens with VC image stabilization absent, although not needed. Also, Tamron branded lenses sold in the U.S. include a 6 year warranty versus the Pentax 1 year warranty. The weather sealing seems to be identical on both products. There is, of course, no available alternative for an auto focus 15-30mm F2.8 full frame lens with Pentax mount compatibility.

Dennis
For what it's worth, the Tamron 15-30 uses Tamron coating, while the Pentax version uses Pentax's HD coating -- a significant upgrade over anything Tamron has available. (see Ricoh's website) HD PENTAX-D FA 15-30mmF2.8ED SDM WR / Wide-Angle Lenses / K-mount Lenses / Lenses / Products | RICOH IMAGING

Regardless, the Tamron 15-30 for Nikon is 1300 and the Pentax 15-30 is 1200 (B and H pricing). This was mentioned earlier in this thread, but clearly you missed it. Therefore the US street price shows the Pentax version (with better coatings) to be ten percent less than the Tamron version.

I do wish that third party lens makers released more of their new lenses in K mount. Particularly some of the telephoto options from Tamron and Sigma would be nice for Pentaxians to look at. At the same time, Pentax gear is actually very reasonably priced. Pentax isn't doing the fire sale thing with their gear any more, but it certainly isn't more expensive than comparable lenses from other makers. Particularly not if you start looking at prices of new lenses for mirrorless full frame offerings from Canon and Nikon.

---------- Post added 04-19-19 at 07:45 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
What's affordable for one isn't affordable for others. Pentax no longer desires to be the "affordable" brand. When I look at flickr, and I see there are more Pentax shooters than Rebel Ti6 shooters, I wonder, why would you waste resources on entry level cameras in this market if you can sell more high end cameras?

As I noted when the K-1 came out. Pentax is focussed on quality, not the kind of rock bottom lenses that are "affordable". They aren't going to put a lot of effort into "bottom of the barrel" low margin product. I bought my FA-J 18-35 new in box, years after production ended. Cheap and dirty didn't sell.

After all these years, I've sent back more Sigma lenses than I've kept and as many failed as I have. Maybe they area good idea for light users who mostly want lens to keep in the closet for the odd time they need it. I haven't found them to be every day lenses, and 1/3 of the ones I've purchased have been so substandard new right out of the box I sent them back.

Of my 6 Sigma purchases 4 are now trash, or were trash as delivered. I've never had to return a single Pentax lens.
I think I would just say that Pentax no longer makes many "cheaply made" lenses. Even the 18-55 kit lens on my daughter's KS-1 feels pretty sturdy and not as though it is going to fall apart if you look at it the wrong way. At the same time, I don't feel as though Pentax is going Leica on us and releasing lenses that no one can think about owning because they are so expensive. Sure, the DFA *50 was really expensive, but later this year they are releasing a 70-200 f4 that should be more reasonable. They should come out with a 70-300 variable aperture zoom for full frame too, that should be more reasonable as well. While the KP is 800 dollars, it isn't the cheapest Pentax and the K70 is just a hair under 600 dollars and offers weather sealing, penta prism viewfinder, and dual control wheels for that price. The T6i has better video, but it isn't sealed and has a pentamirror viewfinder.

Anyway, I know you aren't disparaging Pentax. I just think Pentax decided to forego the K500/KS-1 range -- what used to be the under 500 dollar SLR and start at the 600 dollar point. I think the reality was that they didn't sell many low end cameras and they probably ended up losing money on them in order to get them out of inventory.
04-19-2019, 05:08 PM - 1 Like   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
\
I think I would just say that Pentax no longer makes many "cheaply made" lenses. Even the 18-55 kit lens on my daughter's KS-1 feels pretty sturdy and not as though it is going to fall apart if you look at it the wrong way. At the same time, I don't feel as though Pentax is going Leica on us and releasing lenses that no one can think about owning because they are so expensive. Sure, the DFA *50 was really expensive, but later this year they are releasing a 70-200 f4 that should be more reasonable. They should come out with a 70-300 variable aperture zoom for full frame too, that should be more reasonable as well. While the KP is 800 dollars, it isn't the cheapest Pentax and the K70 is just a hair under 600 dollars and offers weather sealing, penta prism viewfinder, and dual control wheels for that price. The T6i has better video, but it isn't sealed and has a pentamirror viewfinder.

Anyway, I know you aren't disparaging Pentax. I just think Pentax decided to forego the K500/KS-1 range -- what used to be the under 500 dollar SLR and start at the 600 dollar point. I think the reality was that they didn't sell many low end cameras and they probably ended up losing money on them in order to get them out of inventory.
It took me a while to get my DFA 28-105 and I was kind of shocked at the price, especially considering there wasn't a cheaper option, but the lens has been worth every penny, and I have many cheaper options already in my collection.

I'm, actually looking forward to them carrying on with their next APS_c offering. Given the capability and price of the K-P I'm hoping for some impressive new hardware for maybe $300 more than a K-P.
04-20-2019, 02:53 AM - 2 Likes   #53
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I recently saw a figure that shocked me. Pentax has three percent of the Japanese market. Three percent. Of their home market. One can only wonder what the future holds.

The present is not very exciting. The replacement for the K3 II is somewhat overdue. One would think that they could put the sensor from the KP into the K3 II, call it the K3 III and start shipping to a waiting world. Apparently it is not as simple as that.

Then there is the lack of a mirrorless Pentax in a newly emerging market. One would think that they could adapt the Ricoh GR III into an interchangeable lens body, engineer a KAF 4 adapter for it and start shipping to a waiting world. Apparently it is not as simple as that.

It the grim reaper does take our favorite brand away, don't assume that the used market will be a good thing. That used K1 would be a ticking time bomb. If it breaks down, there might not be any spares to repair it. That is pretty much what happened to the Samsung lineup of MILC bodies and lenses when the shutters came down. As the owner of a Samsung cameras with a "special" shutter mechanism that only works below 1/1000 second, I would know. At least I got it cheap. A dealer told me that they were stuck with out of box failures that they could not return.

There isn't a lot of information on Samsung support, or the lack of it. I did find a tale of an American who had to ship his camera to Canada for repairs. He had to travel to collect it because Samsung Canada refused to export it back to him. A website that calls itself Samsung Spares cannot find the product code on the bottom of my NX1. Not a good sign, that.

We can only hope that Pentax manages to survive as a niche player. There is the danger of a death spiral. A lack of sales leads to a lack of R&D funds. This leads to slow sales due to a lack of competitive products. You can see where it goes. The slow decline in the overall camera market does not help either.

04-20-2019, 03:03 AM - 1 Like   #54
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Maybe it is a forgotten brand. To some it is a rejected brand subject to ridicule. But I think, it is a misunderstood brand. Only those who understand Pentax buy Pentax. To understand Pentax, you have to look at the entire system. It's not just about faster AF or video. It's a tool for photographers who can think and say I can get the job done with my skills not with what I have.
04-20-2019, 03:16 AM - 2 Likes   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wasp Quote
I recently saw a figure that shocked me. Pentax has three percent of the Japanese market. Three percent. Of their home market. One can only wonder what the future holds.

The present is not very exciting. The replacement for the K3 II is somewhat overdue. One would think that they could put the sensor from the KP into the K3 II, call it the K3 III and start shipping to a waiting world. Apparently it is not as simple as that.

Then there is the lack of a mirrorless Pentax in a newly emerging market. One would think that they could adapt the Ricoh GR III into an interchangeable lens body, engineer a KAF 4 adapter for it and start shipping to a waiting world. Apparently it is not as simple as that.

It the grim reaper does take our favorite brand away, don't assume that the used market will be a good thing. That used K1 would be a ticking time bomb. If it breaks down, there might not be any spares to repair it. That is pretty much what happened to the Samsung lineup of MILC bodies and lenses when the shutters came down. As the owner of a Samsung cameras with a "special" shutter mechanism that only works below 1/1000 second, I would know. At least I got it cheap. A dealer told me that they were stuck with out of box failures that they could not return.

There isn't a lot of information on Samsung support, or the lack of it. I did find a tale of an American who had to ship his camera to Canada for repairs. He had to travel to collect it because Samsung Canada refused to export it back to him. A website that calls itself Samsung Spares cannot find the product code on the bottom of my NX1. Not a good sign, that.

We can only hope that Pentax manages to survive as a niche player. There is the danger of a death spiral. A lack of sales leads to a lack of R&D funds. This leads to slow sales due to a lack of competitive products. You can see where it goes. The slow decline in the overall camera market does not help either.
I think the tale of Samsung is more of a company who invested a large amount into digital cameras and ended up losing quite a bit. It is an expensive proposition to try to gain market share rapidly and requires a large amount of investment in manufacturing processes and design, both of cameras and lenses.

Ricoh has taken a much more conservative approach. Slower release of products and a pay as you go mandate for the Pentax brand. This means that we will only see two or three new products a year, but it also means that Pentax isn't going to go away. As long as they are turning a profit on each lens and camera body they sell (they are), they should be fine.

As far as the whole mirrorless thing goes, it is unclear why they should enter a segment of the market where they are very weak. People look at the A9 as the peak of MILC performance and think that Pentax could release something similar, but odds are much greater that Pentax would release something along the lines of the A7r -- middling auto focus, sub optimal EVF, and video that suffers in comparison to other cameras on the market. Beyond which, that market is really crowded with Panasonic, Sony, Nikon and Canon all releasing lots of new mirrorless gear. It is hard to say how you stand out in such a situation.

Anyway, long story short, for all the doom and gloom that seems to infest this Forum, Pentax is in decent shape and will continue to release SLRs and SLR gear in a slow, steady and very conservative manner.
04-20-2019, 04:35 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wasp Quote
It the grim reaper does take our favorite brand away, don't assume that the used market will be a good thing. That used K1 would be a ticking time bomb. If it breaks down, there might not be any spares to repair it. That is pretty much what happened to the Samsung lineup of MILC bodies and lenses when the shutters came down. As the owner of a Samsung cameras with a "special" shutter mechanism that only works below 1/1000 second, I would know. At least I got it cheap. A dealer told me that they were stuck with out of box failures that they could not return.
Thankfully, none of the recent Pentax DSLR models is known for common out-of-box or short-term failures - I'm talking here about the K3, K-3II, K-70, KP, K-1 and K-1II (with a possible question mark over the K-70's aperture control solenoid, yet to be proven long-term). The slightly older K-5 series has proven to be a solid workhorse, too. For the rest, we know which cameras have had problems, so we can choose to avoid those. As such, I think the used market is a pretty reliable bet. Many of us buy from it already... I have two Samsung GX-10s, a Samsung GX-1L and Pentax *ist DL2, and numerous F and FA lenses - all quite old by now and bought within the last three years, all in great condition and inexpensive. They work just as well as the new Pentax gear I've bought over the last ten years. And the newer gear is already available used, often at considerable savings over new. In short, there's plenty of great, used gear around to keep K-mount users busy for many years if the brand should fold... but I really don't think it'll come to that
04-20-2019, 05:53 AM - 1 Like   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Thankfully, none of the recent Pentax DSLR models is known for common out-of-box or short-term failures - I'm talking here about the K3, K-3II, K-70, KP, K-1 and K-1II (with a possible question mark over the K-70's aperture control solenoid, yet to be proven long-term). The slightly older K-5 series has proven to be a solid workhorse, too. For the rest, we know which cameras have had problems, so we can choose to avoid those. As such, I think the used market is a pretty reliable bet. Many of us buy from it already... I have two Samsung GX-10s, a Samsung GX-1L and Pentax *ist DL2, and numerous F and FA lenses - all quite old by now and bought within the last three years, all in great condition and inexpensive. They work just as well as the new Pentax gear I've bought over the last ten years. And the newer gear is already available used, often at considerable savings over new. In short, there's plenty of great, used gear around to keep K-mount users busy for many years if the brand should fold... but I really don't think it'll come to that
Most electronics failures come in the first few months of use or they come pretty late in the life cycle of the product. Certainly a K-1 that has been in service for a year and a half without problem shouldn't have a sudden catastrophic failure unless you drop it or some such mishap.

That said, I think electronics are also tougher to fix than old film cameras and I don't think we would be in good shape with available parts and service if Pentax suddenly went away (which it won't).

I would say as well, that if Pentax went away and didn't release new cameras, there still will be tons of MILCs out there that will take K mount lenses with an adapter -- not as big a deal as it sounds. On the other hand, if any of the MILCs would drop out of the market, adapting them to other MILCs could be more difficult as they all seem to have really short registration distances. I don't know, for instance, how many adapters were ever created to port Samsung NX lenses to, say, the FE mount.

Last edited by Rondec; 04-20-2019 at 06:00 AM.
04-20-2019, 06:14 AM - 1 Like   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think electronics are also tougher to fix than old film cameras and I don't think we would be in good shape with available parts and service if Pentax suddenly went away (which it won't).
True. Having said that, it's so expensive to get a DSLR or MILC camera fixed these days outside of warranty that - depending on the fault - it's often uneconomical to repair. If my K-3 failed now, given the amount of use it's had, I'm not sure paying to have it repaired would make financial sense. I'd probably consider buying a lightly used and well-cared for example to replace it instead...
04-20-2019, 06:19 AM - 1 Like   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wasp Quote
I recently saw a figure that shocked me. Pentax has three percent of the Japanese market. Three percent. Of their home market. One can only wonder what the future holds.

The present is not very exciting. The replacement for the K3 II is somewhat overdue. One would think that they could put the sensor from the KP into the K3 II, call it the K3 III and start shipping to a waiting world. Apparently it is not as simple as that.

Then there is the lack of a mirrorless Pentax in a newly emerging market. One would think that they could adapt the Ricoh GR III into an interchangeable lens body, engineer a KAF 4 adapter for it and start shipping to a waiting world. Apparently it is not as simple as that.

It the grim reaper does take our favorite brand away, don't assume that the used market will be a good thing. That used K1 would be a ticking time bomb. If it breaks down, there might not be any spares to repair it. That is pretty much what happened to the Samsung lineup of MILC bodies and lenses when the shutters came down. As the owner of a Samsung cameras with a "special" shutter mechanism that only works below 1/1000 second, I would know. At least I got it cheap. A dealer told me that they were stuck with out of box failures that they could not return.

There isn't a lot of information on Samsung support, or the lack of it. I did find a tale of an American who had to ship his camera to Canada for repairs. He had to travel to collect it because Samsung Canada refused to export it back to him. A website that calls itself Samsung Spares cannot find the product code on the bottom of my NX1. Not a good sign, that.

We can only hope that Pentax manages to survive as a niche player. There is the danger of a death spiral. A lack of sales leads to a lack of R&D funds. This leads to slow sales due to a lack of competitive products. You can see where it goes. The slow decline in the overall camera market does not help either.
It's not different now than when I joined 10 years ago. Same old concerns, different faces. Same hyperbole that boils down to I don't have a single relevant fact, but I'm anxious. There's no shame in taking anxiety meds. And there's no sense worrying about things that will happen no matter what you do. My K-3 is going on 6 years. My K-1 is going on two. There is absolutely no reason to suspect I'll be without a Pentax camera for the next 5 yers, even if Pentax died today. That's a long time to save up for a new system.

Don't worry, be happy.

Last edited by normhead; 04-20-2019 at 12:38 PM.
04-20-2019, 06:20 AM - 1 Like   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wasp Quote
We can only hope that Pentax manages to survive as a niche player. There is the danger of a death spiral. A lack of sales leads to a lack of R&D funds. This leads to slow sales due to a lack of competitive products. You can see where it goes. The slow decline in the overall camera market does not help either.
That is a perfectly logical conclusion, and a possible outcome - but there is another one, which has precedents in evolutionary biology: they might be keeping a lo profile while they sort out the wrinkles and then drive forward hard with investment when threy've got something solid and unique to offer. Right now they are proving that they can make premium lenses at a reasonable price - if I were a haverer I might be tempted by the lenses but worried about the much vaunted ( and much exaggerated) shortcomings of the cameras. If they can steal a march on DSLRs while every one else is putting their resources into the MILC battle (for instance) - and then push hard, they might regain quite a bit of territory. It would take an attitude that hasn't so far characterised Ricoh but, in the end, knowing when to invest is just as important as knowing when to throttle back on investment, and Ricoh management culture has built a substantial company, so I'm betting that the company knows what it is doing.
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