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06-01-2019, 12:55 AM   #226
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
AF speed is one thing, but AF tracking is another- Only the best DSLRS can compete even with mid line mirrorless in AF tracking.
For good tracking you have to have high number of AF points that are spread across the frame.
Still you fail to show any evidence that further improvements in this little tracking area are more than a 4k video style gimmick and would safe Nikon or Canon or Sony from failing in the market.

06-01-2019, 02:23 AM - 1 Like   #227
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
I believe what you say. Not saying that Sony AF is better in all regards than Nikons, just that Sony has something to compete. Their tracking is impressive. Not a bad feat they managed to accomplish in such short time they are on market...
If you know where to look on Youtube and assuming you don't have the option to shoot side by side with cameras from different manufacturers, you will find that even the D500 can put A9 to challenge despite the price difference between them and also despite the difference in sensor size (see the bellow video). But most people tend to look at the videos of Tony Northrup, DPReview or they look at lab tests like the ones from DXO and they are sold to Sony. In real life things are different and if you know where to look and how to filter the information provided in videos or blogs, you will realise how much marketing is involved in there.

But again, we all have different expectations, different shooting style, different skills, different needs and if you think Sony (or mirrorless in general) is the best when comes to tracking, then I'm glad you found the system that works for you. I like Sony cameras in general with a big exception when comes to ergonomics and I do hope to continue to put pressure on all other manufacturers.


06-01-2019, 02:48 AM - 1 Like   #228
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
I believe what you say. Not saying that Sony AF is better in all regards than Nikons, just that Sony has something to compete. Their tracking is impressive. Not a bad feat they managed to accomplish in such short time they are on market...
Sony and Fuji have very large hype machines and paid photographers who churn out material for them telling about how awesome their gear is.

That said, there are actually very few scientific tests out there looking at auto focus. Beholder3 posted some results from a German magazine (Results from a really repeatable AF.C test (no Pentax inlcuded) as reference - PentaxForums.com ) and the results were mixed at best. Cameras that auto focus well in one situation don't necessarily do so in another situation and mirrorless aren't really better than SLRs when you view the overall package. The only thing you can say is that they have "the potential" to be so because of having the auto focus points on the sensor, but on the other hand, SLRs may have more processing power dedicated to auto focus due to have a specific auto focus module. Certainly, your statement about mid level mirrorless beating just about all SLRs when it comes to tracking auto focus is hyperbole at best.

I would add that lenses make a huge difference in this whole discussion. Even in the Pentax world, older SDM driven lenses like the DA *55 and 50-135 are going to track terrible and auto focus slowly, even on a brand new completely redesigned K3 III that Pentax releases with better auto focus than the A9. The newer DFA lenses are quite a bit better. Some of the fastest focusing lenses I have used are the DA 40 limited and FA 135 f2.8, simply because they have really short focus throws. But not all Sony and Fuji lenses are really fast auto focusers either and you simply buying a good tracking camera body doesn't really get you there.
06-01-2019, 05:54 AM   #229
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Sony and Fuji have very large hype machines and paid photographers who churn out material for them telling about how awesome their gear is.

That said, there are actually very few scientific tests out there looking at auto focus. Beholder3 posted some results from a German magazine (Results from a really repeatable AF.C test (no Pentax inlcuded) as reference - PentaxForums.com ) and the results were mixed at best. Cameras that auto focus well in one situation don't necessarily do so in another situation and mirrorless aren't really better than SLRs when you view the overall package. The only thing you can say is that they have "the potential" to be so because of having the auto focus points on the sensor, but on the other hand, SLRs may have more processing power dedicated to auto focus due to have a specific auto focus module. Certainly, your statement about mid level mirrorless beating just about all SLRs when it comes to tracking auto focus is hyperbole at best.

I would add that lenses make a huge difference in this whole discussion. Even in the Pentax world, older SDM driven lenses like the DA *55 and 50-135 are going to track terrible and auto focus slowly, even on a brand new completely redesigned K3 III that Pentax releases with better auto focus than the A9. The newer DFA lenses are quite a bit better. Some of the fastest focusing lenses I have used are the DA 40 limited and FA 135 f2.8, simply because they have really short focus throws. But not all Sony and Fuji lenses are really fast auto focusers either and you simply buying a good tracking camera body doesn't really get you there.
The biggest mistake folks make is to refer to auto-focus as if t's one thing. There is AF.s , AF.c on your k-1 with varying numbers of focus points. One of the things i noted in the past is that using large number of AF points reduces subject aquisition times. Three levels of AF hold, shutter priority or focus priority. To talk about AF without specifying which settings on each camera is simply irresponsible. People talk about AF as if it's one thing. There are lot of settings and variables.

No only that various advanced features like tracking are not implemented the same way on all systems. Different algorithms are used and they perform differently in different situations. every time we see some actual science we learn something new. Weird how all these folks who have posting for years, when faced with actual testing, find that things weren't what they thought they were. I've come to the conclusion that basically, no one who has ever posted on the site has a clue. Some of them when faced with actual science resort to claiming the testers did something wrong, (as if they working in their moms basement with their friends camera for comparison couldn't have done anything wrong, it's actually really funny,)

The one AF test a while ago a Pentax K-3 dominated the Nikon 7100 in the useful part of the test. The Nikon was only better close to the camera. And the Nikon didn't actually track. If the Nikon focus confirm had been used the subject would have moved before the shutter was release. SO what the Nikon did was predict where the subject would be and snap off the image out of focus or not. With my K-3 tracking that's not the same. The Pentax focus confirm is so much faster it checks focus on each image. SO the Nikon doesn't slow down when tracking, because it leaves out the 2.s it would take to confirm each shot. Sometimes the Pentax method produces better results

IN a ton of discussions people have pointed out the Nikon doesn't lose frame rate when tracking making it better than the Pentax. The testing showed that the reason for that was the Pentax confirms focus for each shot. Not one of the bragging Nikon shooters, they all knew the Nikon took more frames, but they didn't know why. We were fed years of nonsense. The simple fact is, using a camera doesn't mean you know a darn thing about the working of the camera. The testing always has surprises.

Form the test I've seen over the years have noted.
For stationary subject in AF.s Pentax is as fast as anyone, with a higher number of frames in acceptable focus.
IN some parts of the test range, Pentax tracking AF is better than D7xxx tracking and will produce a higher number of keepers.

It's at the point now where I won't listen to much that's tossed out there. So many opinions are at odds with available science. And once folks make up their minds, they aren't going to change. They'd rather be a pompous ass with an opinion than knowledgeable about the subject they address. One guy does one test in one circumstance and declares his camera the "winner" based on a data base where the data was selected to prove a point. At this point, I only comment if I have test data backing up my point. There's a lot of folks out there who don' know what they are talking about, of have one test of one range which they then claim means the whole range the camera could be used is the same. Where as we have solid data showing that the camera that works best at 15 feet from the subject may not best when the subject is 7 feet from the subject. Any conclusions that haven't done enough testing to publish this type of result are hogwash.

The fact that one person can get one camera to work better than another doesn't mean everyone else would have the same result. And comprehensive testing is rare. But what it teaches us, is 99% of internet posting is nonsense. Even the blog sites and sites like DPR and IR do a really poor job. Although at least IR has controlled tests that are the same for each camera. You can trust their numbers even if you don't know why they are what they are. Some guy in his moms basement making youtube videos, is practically worthless.


Last edited by normhead; 06-01-2019 at 06:00 AM.
06-01-2019, 08:36 AM   #230
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Still you fail to show any evidence that further improvements in this little tracking area are more than a 4k video style gimmick and would safe Nikon or Canon or Sony from failing in the market.
Good... nonsense again, what safe? Who is safe? from what?

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
If you know where to look on Youtube and assuming you don't have the option to shoot side by side with cameras from different manufacturers, you will find that even the D500 can put A9 to challenge despite the price difference between them and also despite the difference in sensor size
I know D500 is a competent camera for AF tracking. It has D5 AF module. Bonus is - it covers smaller sensor so the af points are spread all over the image. Even A6400 has more or less same tracking capabilities as its 4 times more expensive brother.
As for video - that guy seems like hes on Nikon paycheck
QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
But most people tend to look at the videos of Tony Northrup
ugh.. cant stand that guy
QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
then I'm glad you found the system that works for you.
Only mirrorles i shoot with is Fuji x100 series as i dont really like EVFs. My findings are just observations from various YT videos and web sites (I never follow jut one guy and take his words as gospel, just to be clear).

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Sony and Fuji have very large hype machines and paid photographers who churn out material for them telling about how awesome their gear is.
I'd argue that Nikon and especially Canon have even more photographers on their paycheck. Mirrorless has momentum for other reasons too, not just hype machine (not saying there isnt any).
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Results from a really repeatable AF.C test (no Pentax inlcuded) as reference - PentaxForums.com
Hmm.. from the description they were tracking a image projection on a canvas? 2d movement? flickering from the projected image? Is there a link to the actual test?
Results discrepancies from the D810 and D7200 seem very odd... they have the same AF module and using the same lenses results should be closer to eachother...
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The only thing you can say is that they have "the potential" to be so because of having the auto focus points on the sensor, but on the other hand, SLRs may have more processing power dedicated to auto focus due to have a specific auto focus module. Certainly, your statement about mid level mirrorless beating just about all SLRs when it comes to tracking auto focus is hyperbole at best.
Yes, ive said that mirrorless have greater potential for AF development. Yes, SLRs could have more processing power dedicated to AF, but so can mirrorless.
Never said mid level mirrorless beating all SLRs. You misquoted me there. Ive said only best DSLRs have comparable tracking performance as mid level mirrorless...
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I would add that lenses make a huge difference in this whole discussion.
Yes, of course, the smaller the focus throw, the lighter the glass and the stronger and faster motor the lens will focus faster. Lens AF speed is simple engineering
06-01-2019, 10:07 AM - 1 Like   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
I know D500 is a competent camera for AF tracking. It has D5 AF module. Bonus is - it covers smaller sensor so the af points are spread all over the image. Even A6400 has more or less same tracking capabilities as its 4 times more expensive brother.
As for video - that guy seems like hes on Nikon paycheck
As long as in low light the af from A6400 struggles and it does struggle, it's not a reliable camera for a serious wildlife photographer as D500 is.

Regarding the "Nikon guy", he is just a guy who bought all the gear he is talking about in his videos. He has D500, D850 and he bought A9 with Sony 100-400mm lens. He loves shooting both systems and he has stunning images in his portfolio.

QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
Only mirrorles i shoot with is Fuji x100 series as i dont really like EVFs. My findings are just observations from various YT videos and web sites (I never follow jut one guy and take his words as gospel, just to be clear).
That's why I tell everyone who wants to buy a camera to go out and test it because internet is the biggest source of cancan informations. Maybe you have the impression that you have a good/valid opinion about a camera/system by reading/watching internet stuff, but bare in mind that the best opinion/feedback is from your personal experience about cameras/lenses you tested. And again, you seem to have a very good opinion about A6400 which has a good tracking in bright daylight, but take it to shoot wildlife or indoor sports and you will realise that reality can be a lot different than what you read on internet.

QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
Yes, ive said that mirrorless have greater potential for AF development. Yes, SLRs could have more processing power dedicated to AF, but so can mirrorless.
Mirrorless indeed seem to have more potential at this point, but we never know where DSLRs are going in terms of af. Nikon D6 and Canon 1Dx Mark III are just around the corner and as long as the big boys will have the support of pro photographers, not even the next 2-3 generations of Sony A9 will stand a chance in the pro market.

I was in Madrid last month to see the tennis tournament. 80% of the photographers were using Canon and 20% Nikon. Not a single Sony A9 was in the dedicated spots of the pro photographers. The pros are very nice people and they are willing to share info if you know how to approach them. I love talking to them and see what settings they use in terms of af. I ask one of them if he is interested in Sony. You know what he said? Nothing. He gave me one of his cameras and told me to look at the images he took and scroll the gallery to see at least 100 images. He had 3 out of focus images from 100+ images that I look at. Seeing me smiling he realised that I understood his point and he told me that he is often a target because tennis balls, footbal balls, even players will eventualy hit him or his camera and durrability is also important. They learned in years to get the most out of their cameras and that's why the placement of the buttons doesn't change with the new releases. Learning a new system require time and they rather use what they are used to as long as they know that will do the job in any condition. I'm sure that if Canon or Nikon will release a mirrorless 1Dx/D5, the photographers will benefit from the familiarity that they want/need.

That being said, if the consumer market will force companies to replace entry level and middle level DSLRs with mirrorless, then we will see a lot of attention to artificial intelligence, af tracking and who knows what other features. I'm ok with new technology even if I'm a little scared that at some point it may take away all the fun of shooting. Until then I'm having fun shooting with any camera I can put my hands on.
06-01-2019, 10:11 AM   #232
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Which technology is cheapest to produce for the camera companies will have an edge as they will push that which is the most profitable

06-01-2019, 10:19 AM - 1 Like   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by rr1736 Quote
Which technology is cheapest to produce for the camera companies will have an edge as they will push that which is the most profitable
Naw, that's not right.
Who here owns the cheapest technology available?
06-01-2019, 10:33 AM   #234
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
And again, you seem to have a very good opinion about A6400 which has a good tracking in bright daylight, but take it to shoot wildlife or indoor sports and you will realise that reality can be a lot different than what you read on internet.
Hmm.. you have some pretty valid points in your post, lemme just ask why is wildlife problematic with a6400? most of the images of wildlife ive seen are well above -2ev. Shot in the bright daylight actually...
And another note - pro market is pretty inert. Most of pros rent their gear anywho. And the big rental companies have stockpiled tons of Canon (mostly) and Nikon lenses so it isnt economically viable for them to switch to some other brand.
06-01-2019, 10:57 AM - 3 Likes   #235
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
Hmm.. you have some pretty valid points in your post, lemme just ask why is wildlife problematic with a6400? most of the images of wildlife ive seen are well above -2ev. Shot in the bright daylight actually...
Depends on wildlife. Go shoot a bear or wolves in forests or shoot like the guy in the video early in the morning when birds are active and the light is soft and you will see that a camera needs all the help it can in order to maintain the tracking capabilities that you see advertised on youtube videos by people shooting in bright daylight. And eye af for animals is in early stages and for the moment it's not reliable. Sony is famous for eye af on people and most of the youtube videos adress this category. But when comes to wildlife things are a little different and A6400 is good in daylight and less good in situations less than ideal.

QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
And another note - pro market is pretty inert. Most of pros rent their gear anywho. And the big rental companies have stockpiled tons of Canon (mostly) and Nikon lenses so it isnt economically viable for them to switch to some other brand.
As long as they rent the gear as you say, switching to other brand cost nothing. Or, to be more precise, renting an A9 with a 400mm f2.8 lens costs similar to renting a Canon/Nikon with a 400mm f2.8 lens. Yet, Sony is almost imposible to be seen in big sport events. How would you convince a photographer that trust the build quality of the gear he is using and who has 3 out of focus images from more than 100 images taken to switch brands? By telling him that Sony has eye af and mirrorless is the future?

---------- Post added 06-01-19 at 06:01 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Naw, that's not right.
Who here owns the cheapest technology available?
Pentax does. Yet, as a landscape camera K1 II is very hard to beat by other full frame cameras with top of the line technology.
06-01-2019, 11:13 AM   #236
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
As for video - that guy seems like hes on Nikon paycheck
Nikon DSLR AF is better than Sony mirroless. It's easy to tell when holding both cameras side by side. That said, Sony has the best AF of all mirrorless systems, that's true.
06-01-2019, 12:05 PM   #237
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Depends on wildlife. Go shoot a bear or wolves in forests or shoot like the guy in the video early in the morning when birds are active and the light is soft and you will see that a camera needs all the help it can in order to maintain the tracking capabilities that you see advertised on youtube videos by people shooting in bright daylight. And eye af for animals is in early stages and for the moment it's not reliable. Sony is famous for eye af on people and most of the youtube videos adress this category. But when comes to wildlife things are a little different and A6400 is good in daylight and less good in situations less than ideal.
Hmmm.. but -2ev is something like moonlit scene...
QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
As long as they rent the gear as you say, switching to other brand cost nothing. Or, to be more precise, renting an A9 with a 400mm f2.8 lens costs similar to renting a Canon/Nikon with a 400mm f2.8 lens. Yet, Sony is almost imposible to be seen in big sport events. How would you convince a photographer that trust the build quality of the gear he is using and who has 3 out of focus images from more than 100 images taken to switch brands? By telling him that Sony has eye af and mirrorless is the future?
Inertia I say... It will take a generation of photographers to get the idea what system will prevail. If it isnt broken why change it? Right It was the same story with rangefinder/SLR, pros didnt jump ship the same moment that SLRs entered the market with full force.
About renting - yes for the end user its the same what system it'll rent. But do the rental companies have enough stock of Sony gear to rent for sporting events? And what about technical support for said gear...

About the potential of AF development - mirrorless have the whole sensor to analyze the scene and feed the information to processor, while DSLRs have small, low resolution secondary sensors. It would be costly for DSLRS to utilize primary and secondary sensors of same size and resolution. Thats why i think that when software algorithms mature, mirrorless will have much better AF than DSLR.

---------- Post added 06-01-19 at 09:06 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Nikon DSLR AF is better than Sony mirroless. It's easy to tell when holding both cameras side by side. That said, Sony has the best AF of all mirrorless systems, that's true.
Even with the recent firmware addition? Seems theyve got universal praise for AF capabilities with that one...
06-01-2019, 01:06 PM - 1 Like   #238
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
Hmmm.. but -2ev is something like moonlit scene...
In theory. But again, in practice you may have surprises if we talk about tracking performance and not about static subjects that wait for you to focus.

QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
Inertia I say... It will take a generation of photographers to get the idea what system will prevail. If it isnt broken why change it? Right It was the same story with rangefinder/SLR, pros didnt jump ship the same moment that SLRs entered the market with full force.
There are lots of Pro photographers under or around 30 years old and they are used to technology more than the generation before them who still uses mobile phones with buttons instead of smartphones. I don't think that the transition has to do with old mentality. The fact that they don't change to Sony has to do with lots of things:

- durrability and build quality that Sony lacks even on third generation of cameras
- af that seems good enough on DSLRs which can't be said about shooting with electronic shutter for example in some circumstances
- pro support that Sony lacks
- etc.

And not to mention that some of the photographers have eye pain and headaches from EVF. Don't get me wrong, Sony has very good af, no question about that. But as long as Canon and Nikon will keep their top of the line DSLRs alive, I'm sure that they will give us some nice surprises in terms of af performance.

What intrigues me about Canon mirrorless are the new lenses. All the mirrorless fast lenses released seem spectacular. I'm the kind of guy who rather shoot with very good lenses on a middle level body than buying once a year the new released top of the line camera and use it with cheap lenses or with old lenses from film era or with third party lenses. At paid jobs I use only L fast primes. Because of the lenses I tend to shoot more and more with mirrorless cameras from different manufacturers hoping that my eyes will accept eventually EVFs.
06-01-2019, 02:22 PM   #239
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
Actually form does play a significant factor. Some users give more weight to form over function.
Form is significant. If the ergonomics of a piece of equipment are bad, then it's not going to work.
As an example, my understanding is that in terms of performance, Sony outperforms Pentax in practically every metric. However, for me they are an ergonomic nightmare that would take every speck of joy out of my life.
So, Sony and I are not on good terms.
06-01-2019, 08:50 PM   #240
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
IAF speed is one thing, but AF tracking is another- Only the best DSLRS can compete even with mid line mirrorless in AF tracking.
For good tracking you have to have high number of AF points that are spread across the frame.
The important question should be: what tracking ability does a particular individual need? I took the photos below one week ago - using the DA 55-300 PLM + 1.4X TC on a KP (I believe I was using 9-point AF} while we were at Pt Pelee National Park in Canada; they are not great photos, but this combination delivered what I needed. After that {long} weekend, I'm convinced that combination can attain {and maintain} focus on anything I can get into the viewfinder ..... unlike my K-30, I am now the weak-link in wildlife shots, and I am comfortable with that.


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