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05-21-2019, 05:34 PM   #16
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And I was waiting for the K02

05-21-2019, 05:59 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asimov Quote
I was expecting Pentax would finally join the mirrorless fray. Not so
Whoa!

They didn't say that, read that interview again and all the previous interviews with Ricoh execs on the topic.

They're studying the market (this will include the disappointing Nikon and Canon FF mirrorless releases).

They will watch carefully. They don't know whether APS-C or FF or MF would be the first Pentax return to mirrorless. Until they've observed what happens to everyone else, there aren't 'concrete' plans.
05-21-2019, 06:24 PM   #18
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Let's be clear that cameras will not be successful purely based on whether they have an EVF or not. The question is whether the specs are up to what the market expects at the price the camera is offered combined with how developed the lens line up is. This second place is where Canon and Nikon are lagging a bit at present (and no, adapted lenses don't really count).

For Pentax to launch a mirrorless camera, assuming that it would have a new mount, it would require years to develop a decent lens line up. And many of Pentax's classic lenses wouldn't be easily adapted as they have mechanical aperture linkage and in lens motors.
05-21-2019, 06:52 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Mirrorless is just another camera architecture. It's better on some dimensions and worse on others. And some of the most salient aspects of the MILC design such as body size and EVFs are simultaneously loved by some and hated by others.

Mirrorless is currently a fad among those who seek new technology for its own sake or think that different gear will make them a better photographer. Some of those now buying mirrorless for the wrong reason or who don't comprehend how it differs from the DSLR design will likely switch to DSLRs. And just as some DSLR and smartphone users are now buying MILCs because they think it could make them a better photographer, some MILC and smartphone users will buy DSLRs in the future because they think it could make them a better photographer. There's always going to be churn in the camera market both because different photographers have different objective and subjective requirements and because bad random experiences with one brand drive switchers into the arms of other brands.

The fact that neither Nikon's or Canon's MILCs have set the world on fire shows that MILCs are not the universal future of photography. It makes Ricoh's decision to stay out look quite smart. They've deftly avoided getting into a multi-way melee with "the big boys" over a market that may not be a big and attractive and MILC-lovers claimed it was.

Perhaps the most interesting issue is that a DSLR can act like a MILC simply by switching to live view but a MILC can't act like a DSLR. As such, the DSLR truly is the more advanced design -- offering two modes of operation in one body. And if DSLR makers ever develop a hybrid viewfinder, the reasons to stay with MILC will plummet.
Wellllllllll............Nobody esplained it to me Dat Way!!!!

05-21-2019, 09:12 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Let's be clear that cameras will not be successful purely based on whether they have an EVF or not. The question is whether the specs are up to what the market expects at the price the camera is offered combined with how developed the lens line up is. This second place is where Canon and Nikon are lagging a bit at present (and no, adapted lenses don't really count).

For Pentax to launch a mirrorless camera, assuming that it would have a new mount, it would require years to develop a decent lens line up. And many of Pentax's classic lenses wouldn't be easily adapted as they have mechanical aperture linkage and in lens motors.
Lenses are key to any new mirrorless offering from Ricoh. A new mount will mean a new range of lenses, even if a successful adapter for existing lenses can be created and launched simultaneously. Even so, without at least a few starter lenses in the new mount, potential buyers will be hesitant, as it indicates a possible lack of commitment to the new mount. I think we’d be more likely to see a Ricoh-badged mirrorless entrant using the Leica L-mount, than a Pentax-badged mirrorless using a new mount, but not by much, as it would likely diminish their return on investment in DSLRs. While I wouldn’t completely rule out a K-mount mirrorless, I suspect anything else would be a non-starter.

A hybrid viewfinder version of the K-1 replacement, launched in parallel with a conventional DSLR version is the most likely outcome of Ricoh’s “studies”, IMHO. That’s if they can make the hybrid EVF/OVF work to the satisfaction of users.
05-21-2019, 09:25 PM - 3 Likes   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I also think people are reading far too much into that interview. I read it twice and in my opinion what was said is open to interpretation. Which can vary considerably.

Sounds like a logical statement of fact, not at all " otherworldly and alienated". Unless of course you are a mirrorless fanatic that thinks production of DSLRs should be stopped immediately..........

We have already seen this happening. Mirrorless is not the only way to take pictures. I greatly prefer a DSLR. But like @BigMackCam if I were to be using a selection of older manual lenses I suspect I would invest in a FF mirrorless as an additional camera, but not as my only camera. Mirrorless is the "big new thing" and many people like to try out the "big new thing" which is fine. Some like it, some don't and if they don't often they go back to what they had before. That's all that is being said in this interview. No where does he say Pentax will never make a mirrorless. In fact Pentax has already had two different mirrorless systems so arguably they have as much experience in that area as most others.
The thing is, on K-1 I can shoot my 50-ish manual lenses as I would on an adaptered mirrorless, except I use the angled LCD as if it is a waist-level finder instead of an EVF as an eye-level finder.. I use the WLF on my LX from time to time, so what’s the difference? If I need magnified Live View to achieve critical focus (I don’t) I have it in my DSLR. I can spend the $3,000 for a top-flight MILC on a couple * lenses instead.
05-21-2019, 09:33 PM - 3 Likes   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asimov Quote
I was expecting Pentax would finally join the mirrorless fray. Not so and maybe for very good reasons.
Not the reasons I read in this article. The reaction of the Pentax official sounds almost otherworldly and alienated.
Is this for real?

Ricoh executives think mirrorless photographers will soon return to DSLRs | Digital Camera World
I think the critical word in the entire section on returning MILC shooters is “some”. So many people have drunk the mirrorless Kool-Aid that no one hears nuance - or even direct words - any more. Will OVF’s and mirrors die or will the two systems co-exist as tools for different uses? A contrarian would say at this point, given the overwhelming narrative in favor of MILC, the more likely outcome is some people return to dSLR’s.
05-21-2019, 09:57 PM - 1 Like   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I think the critical word in the entire section on returning MILC shooters is “some”. So many people have drunk the mirrorless Kool-Aid that no one hears nuance - or even direct words - any more. Will OVF’s and mirrors die or will the two systems co-exist as tools for different uses? A contrarian would say at this point, given the overwhelming narrative in favor of MILC, the more likely outcome is some people return to dSLR’s.
Ecxactly. The keyword is SOME. Afaik Pentax serves a niche and not the general mass market. Those who don‘t go or stick with mirrorless are a large enough target group. That‘s how I understand these interviews.

Additionally, as some said, the gap might get smaller with hybrid vf and other technologies. They are still having an eye on the market. No drama to see here really.

05-21-2019, 11:42 PM - 3 Likes   #24
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Let's be realistic - the present goal for Pentax is to refresh all of its DSLR lines with new flagships - APS-C, FF and MF.

Even this seems to be a difficult task, given - I guess - the lack of capital investment from Ricoh. There's no way they can support an additional product line, which would be launched with no lenses.

Also, mirrorless right now is shaping up to be a bloodbath. There are a plethora of options in mirrorless full frame, and brands are discounting to get people to buy into a system. Panasonic could be a big loser with their S1/R. That will be an indication to Pentax there's not point in trying to launch new product now. Fujifilm seem to own the mirrorless APS-C segment and we can only expect that they will produce better products as well. Pentax is too far behind to launch now in a hyper competitive market where margins are going to be slim due to competition.

If Ricoh does do something, I'd say they should follow on from the success of the GRIII and produce something super compact, user friendly and innovative -entry level and quirky, something that people would want to use rather than a smart phone.

Personally I'm going to pick up a mirrorless camera, primarily for video and for lower weight while travelling, while maintaining the K1 with the f2.8 glass, and continue to use it for events shooting and studio work. I like OVF and I can't see how smaller weight/form factor can be an advantage when you're shooting say with a 70-200 f2,8. I'm doing that with the expectation that Pentax will launch a new FF camera that continues in the vein of the K1 while improving some of its weaknesses in the next 12-24 months (mainly better AF, especially wider coverage in the frame, ideally a joystick). Actually I like shooting with the K1's face detect mode in Liveview. It has some downsides and can be inconsistent, but if you're not in a rush and you play around with it to figure out the quirks, it can be pretty useful. Really hoping this gets an overhaul.

Also the DFA* 50mm lens - this is the best lens I've ever used. If the 85mm is on par then Pentax will be a portrait monster.

Last edited by Dericali; 05-21-2019 at 11:53 PM.
05-22-2019, 01:21 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
*snip* Mirrorless is currently a fad among those who seek new technology for its own sake or think that different gear will make them a better photographer. Some of those now buying mirrorless for the wrong reason or who don't comprehend how it differs from the DSLR design will likely switch to DSLRs. *snip*
I have a K-01, a K-30, and a GH2 (for video, but I occasionally shoot pics with it), so hardly new tech.
Due to the way LV works on the K-30 (idiotically, that is), I almost always use the K-01, with a LCD viewfinder.
The GH2, with its huge LV/EVF max magnification ratio (for MF) and the fact that it has an EVF are big plusses.

The main issue is not the appeal of "new tech", but the fact that digital (EVF) has huge room for improvement, while mechanics (mirror) haven't, and making them better entails increased material and production costs.

We're there more or less, and it can and probably will get much better than this in a matter of a few years.
05-22-2019, 02:22 AM   #26
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Yes i think they are largely mistaking. There is 2 kind of people who buy mirrorles - those who know their benefits and drawbacks and those who are on a bandwagon and really dont need a camera. Those who are in for better AF performance and video will stay with mirrorless, the others will too because its pretty much indifferent for them whether they own a mirrorless or a DSLR.
A tiny number might go back, but that is just a tiny number - not something to base R&D and marketing strategy on.
And those who are happy with dslr will just stay with dslr...

Last edited by Trickortreat; 05-22-2019 at 02:39 AM.
05-22-2019, 03:00 AM - 1 Like   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dericali Quote
Personally I'm going to pick up a mirrorless camera, primarily for video and for lower weight while travelling, while maintaining the K1 with the f2.8 glass, and continue to use it for events shooting and studio work.
This is exactly what the Ricoh executive suggested some would do, Dericali … and everyone at PetaPixel, DPR, etc is laughing.
05-22-2019, 03:04 AM - 4 Likes   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
Yes i think they are largely mistaking.
They will have serious market research that you don't have, Trickortreat.

They were the only camera company we know about that increased its sales last quarter. The big boys who went mirrorless - Canon and Nikon - went into decline, as did Sony.

Perhaps the Ricoh executives know how to do their job … get a tiny marketshare business (less than 2 percent?) through a big downturn in the industry.

Last edited by clackers; 05-22-2019 at 03:15 AM.
05-22-2019, 03:21 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
They were the only camera company we know about that increased its sales last quarter. The big boys who went mirrorless - Canon and Nikon - went into decline, as did Sony.
Their imaging division made profit, we dont know how much of that is camera sales. AFAIK only big hitter Ricoh currently has i Theta and maybe GR, for all that we know DSLR could be total market failure.
05-22-2019, 03:26 AM - 2 Likes   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
Their imaging division made profit, we dont know how much of that is camera sales. AFAIK only big hitter Ricoh currently has i Theta and maybe GR, for all that we know DSLR could be total market failure.
Again, you are completely guessing, the executives have this data and use it to make strategy, while you have absolutely no idea.

None of the camera divisions - Canon, Panasonic, Nikon - release individual model sales even to their shareholders, let alone you!

Fuji may be kept going by its Instax film camera sales.
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