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05-23-2019, 05:16 AM   #76
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If I were in charge...

I would release a Pentax mirrorless with a Sony E-mount or L-mount and then a high performance K to E/L mount adapter. Pentax would likely pay a hefty royalty to Sony or Leica for use of the E or Lmount, but not have to develop a full set of mirrorless lenses initially. It would allow them to "dabble" in mirrorless with a smaller R&D investment while continuing to support the K mount and SLRs.

We already know what a Sony E mount camera looks like.

A Pentax E-mount mirrorless camera may not have the fanciest AF or video features, but it would be weather sealed very well, have Pentax color/image processing, Pentax astrotracer (much like A7R vs K-1). For people who don't know about Pentax and just want E mount lenses, the grip may be smaller. For people who will keep the K-mount adapter on full-time, Pentax could do a KP like modular grip. For Sony, this could be their rugged line and be another salvo against Nikon/Canon.

A Pentax L-mount camera would be interesting since Panasonic or Sigma may be supportive if Pentax switched to Panasonic sensors or Foveon sensors. The number of Panasonic L mount users buy Leica lenses has always been questionable, but given the whole ethos of the Pentax Limited line, Leica may believe that some Pentaxians with L mount cameras will buy Leica glass. The L-Mount, like the K-mount, faces competition from EF/RF/Z/F/E mounts, and having another member with a heritage/track record like Pentax would help.

The disadvantage of L-mount is that Panasonic may be able to create better ergonomics than Sony, so the delta between Pentax/Panasonic and Pentax/Sony may be smaller.

05-23-2019, 06:40 AM - 1 Like   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
Your numbers are waaay off.
Ever tougt that those novice smartphone shooters are just buying new gear because it is new and they dont really need it?
So if they dont like the mirrorles they bought theyd just put it on a shelf there or sell it and go back to smartphones?
They are used looking at electronic screens anyway.
They are only used to looking AT electronic screens. They are not used to looking INTO electronic viewfinders.

The people who get headaches/eyestrain from EVFs have no problems with electronic screens (their smartphones, TVs, computer monitors, etc.) because their eye gets to see the rest of the world around them. But the sensory effects when you put your eye to a VF are very different.

The point is that a significant percentage of first-time MILC users will find EVFs uncomfortable. Maybe that will make them give up photography or just use the camera in zombie-pose mode. But if they try an OVF, they will find it much more pleasant and be likely to switch.
05-23-2019, 06:55 AM - 1 Like   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
The people who get headaches/eyestrain from EVFs have no problems with electronic screens (their smartphones, TVs, computer monitors, etc.) because their eye gets to see the rest of the world around them. But the sensory effects when you put your eye to a VF are very different..
This^^^ is exactly what happens to me. I work with computer screens all day long without an issue. I can't stand electronic viewfinders.

The problem is with the MILC propaganda, who utterly and aggressively rejects choice. I'm afraid DSLRs will die simply because people won't know there is such a non-headache inducing alternative.
05-23-2019, 07:00 AM - 1 Like   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by GXAlan Quote
I would release a Pentax mirrorless with a Sony E-mount or L-mount and then a high performance K to E/L mount adapter. Pentax would likely pay a hefty royalty to Sony or Leica for use of the E or Lmount, but not have to develop a full set of mirrorless lenses initially. It would allow them to "dabble" in mirrorless with a smaller R&D investment while continuing to support the K mount and SLRs
I've rarely seen a post that left me so cold in terms of finding a single thing I can agree with.
Make bodies for other people's lenses as a business plan? Really?

That would definitely reduce Pentax to the absolute bottom tier of the camera industry and completely disregard the user base that use legacy lenses.

Over the years I've bought six DSLr camera bodies and 23 lenses many at the same price or more expensive than my camera bodies. Why would Pentax choose to give up all that income by going into competition with every camera maker on the planet? When Hoya was in charge it was almost like camera bodies were introduced for the sole purpose of selling a large inventory of glass blanks still in the warehouses. The bodies were almost there just to sell Pentax glass. With the ltd.s and the K-1, the K-1 probably owes it's existence to legacy glass waiting to be assembled and sold. SO welcome to the Pentax world. After while you'll get a better understanding of the company's mindset.

You have to ask, if you're willing to spend on E or L mount lenses, why would you want a Pentax body for them? How wold they be better than what's out there? Pentax has it's own stable of excellent lenses. Selling them makes them money.

05-23-2019, 07:27 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I've rarely seen a post that left me so cold in terms of finding a single thing I can agree with.
Make bodies for other people's lenses as a business plan? Really?
Make bodies which will be more expensive* and technically inferior** and will be sold with basically no marketing.
A strategy to sell neither cameras nor lenses.

* because they'd be new cameras competing with older models
** I really doubt they'll gain class leading performance and autofocus and 4K just by going mirrorless
05-23-2019, 07:41 AM - 1 Like   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by GXAlan Quote
If I were in charge...

I would release a Pentax mirrorless with a Sony E-mount or L-mount and then a high performance K to E/L mount adapter. Pentax would likely pay a hefty royalty to Sony or Leica for use of the E or Lmount, but not have to develop a full set of mirrorless lenses initially. It would allow them to "dabble" in mirrorless with a smaller R&D investment while continuing to support the K mount and SLRs.

We already know what a Sony E mount camera looks like.

A Pentax E-mount mirrorless camera may not have the fanciest AF or video features, but it would be weather sealed very well, have Pentax color/image processing, Pentax astrotracer (much like A7R vs K-1). For people who don't know about Pentax and just want E mount lenses, the grip may be smaller. For people who will keep the K-mount adapter on full-time, Pentax could do a KP like modular grip. For Sony, this could be their rugged line and be another salvo against Nikon/Canon.

A Pentax L-mount camera would be interesting since Panasonic or Sigma may be supportive if Pentax switched to Panasonic sensors or Foveon sensors. The number of Panasonic L mount users buy Leica lenses has always been questionable, but given the whole ethos of the Pentax Limited line, Leica may believe that some Pentaxians with L mount cameras will buy Leica glass. The L-Mount, like the K-mount, faces competition from EF/RF/Z/F/E mounts, and having another member with a heritage/track record like Pentax would help.

The disadvantage of L-mount is that Panasonic may be able to create better ergonomics than Sony, so the delta between Pentax/Panasonic and Pentax/Sony may be smaller.
Other than ergonomics and maybe astro tracer, I'm a bit confused as to why you think anyone would buy a Pentax camera over something like an A7 III or A7r II. As far as performance, Sony mirrorless is way ahead of where Pentax is at. Just look at comments on the web with regard to the GR III's video performance.

Pentax's strong points are best seen in their SLR design and likely would be lost with a mirrorless design. And they wouldn't even have the benefit of selling many lenses as most people would just get Sony and third party lenses rather than wait on Pentax's e mount lens line up, which would be forthcoming, I am sure.
05-23-2019, 07:53 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
They are only used to looking AT electronic screens. They are not used to looking INTO electronic viewfinders.

The people who get headaches/eyestrain from EVFs have no problems with electronic screens (their smartphones, TVs, computer monitors, etc.) because their eye gets to see the rest of the world around them. But the sensory effects when you put your eye to a VF are very different.

The point is that a significant percentage of first-time MILC users will find EVFs uncomfortable. Maybe that will make them give up photography or just use the camera in zombie-pose mode. But if they try an OVF, they will find it much more pleasant and be likely to switch.
Or they will just buy a camera with an ovf directly. Buying first mirrorless and then dslr back to back seems unlikely to me.
Its the age of internet. Youd be surprised how many people do research before buying... those who dont just go to some major store and buy a Canon with a kit lens.

---------- Post added 05-23-19 at 04:55 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
This^^^ is exactly what happens to me. I work with computer screens all day long without an issue. I can't stand electronic viewfinders.

The problem is with the MILC propaganda, who utterly and aggressively rejects choice. I'm afraid DSLRs will die simply because people won't know there is such a non-headache inducing alternative.
EVFs make my eyes strain. You say they introduce headces for you. But majority of people just dont have problems with EVFs or they are willing to compromise...

05-23-2019, 08:32 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
EVFs make my eyes strain. You say they introduce headces for you. But majority of people just dont have problems with EVFs or they are willing to compromise...
Not always; usually it's "just" strain - but why on Earth would I accept that? Because someone on the Internet tells me how DSLRs are dead and MILCs are the future?
05-23-2019, 08:38 AM   #84
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Not really, no. I for one will stay with optical cameras. DSLR or rangefinder. Whatever lasts last on this market.
But a lot of people are accepting evfs and mirrorless and i think Ricoh execs are a bit out of touch with the situation on the market if they think therel be a even remotely significant shift back to dslrs from mirrorless...
05-23-2019, 08:41 AM - 2 Likes   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
Or they will just buy a camera with an ovf directly. Buying first mirrorless and then dslr back to back seems unlikely to me.
Its the age of internet. Youd be surprised how many people do research before buying... those who dont just go to some major store and buy a Canon with a kit lens.

---------- Post added 05-23-19 at 04:55 PM ----------



EVFs make my eyes strain. You say they introduce headces for you. But majority of people just dont have problems with EVFs or they are willing to compromise...
First, in the age of the internet, you'd be surprised how few people do any research. (Hint: anyone who says they "didn't know Pentax still made cameras" or asks "Canon or Nikon" clearly skipped the research phase of camera choice.) It's clear on these and other photography forums that many people buy cameras on hype or the advice of others without understanding the specifics of their own needs and how that affects camera choice.

Second, no matter how much research someone does, the internet can't tell them whether an EVF will be a problem for them. It's only after they use one for an extended period of time that a person learns that EVFs are suck (or are OK).

Product design decisions are not dictated by the majority. They are controlled by minority segments of whatever sufficient size is needed to justify the R&D and production costs of a new niche product. The majority never buy ultrawide or ultratelephoto lenses and yet camera makers still make them. In fact, the majority don't buy primes these days and yet the minority who do are large enough and wealthy enough to justify development of a portfolio of niche products.

Last edited by photoptimist; 05-23-2019 at 08:47 AM.
05-23-2019, 09:03 AM - 1 Like   #86
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Mirrorless cameras to me were very interesting to hear about at first. When I saw some youtubes about the new Sony mirrorless and how the flange was so close to the sensor that you can put any lens on it with an adapter and have no issues, that was interesting. I was so glad to see Sony come out and show the big boys things they didn't think of. So the universal lens mounting and the smaller size and less weight seem good. But I need my optical viewfinder and like the battery life of one not running some display all the time. For me the pluses don't outweigh the minuses. I think its a fad and if consumers like what I do, these will fade off and go away. I think smartphones have influenced the situation. Do we think/hope that real photographers drive this market and not iphone users?
05-23-2019, 09:30 AM   #87
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The Internet, bah! It's getting more and more difficult to extract information from all the noise.

What will you get if you carelessly use the Internet? One of the more popular choice - rather than the best for you - of a brand that does a lot of social media activism.
05-23-2019, 09:36 AM - 4 Likes   #88
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Bored. Bored and Bored.

One thing is for sure I will always Appreciate BigMackCam for his calm way of dealing with these topics of mirrorless vs DSLR.

Culture.
05-23-2019, 10:30 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The Internet, bah! It's getting more and more difficult to extract information from all the noise.
I thought I was the only one who noticed.
05-23-2019, 11:37 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
First, in the age of the internet, you'd be surprised how few people do any research. (Hint: anyone who says they "didn't know Pentax still made cameras" or asks "Canon or Nikon" clearly skipped the research phase of camera choice.) It's clear on these and other photography forums that many people buy cameras on hype or the advice of others without understanding the specifics of their own needs and how that affects camera choice.
Yes, I addressed those - they buy a Canon with a kit lens

QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Second, no matter how much research someone does, the internet can't tell them whether an EVF will be a problem for them. It's only after they use one for an extended period of time that a person learns that EVFs are suck (or are OK)

Its pretty common on the internet to stumble upon EVF eye strain issues or headaches. Even tho it is not common for people to have those. Of all the photo gear users i know (know them alot) only I have issues with EVFs... so info on the internet seems greatly exaggerated? Or it is that only older people have issues with EVFs?


QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Product design decisions are not dictated by the majority.
I greatly disagree with this statement. Design decisions are not made for the niche buyers.
Market research shows mirrorless sales will grow and DSLRs sales will shrink - thats why major players are battling in mirrorless arena...
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