[Wheatfield]

I generally agree with your statements, but only top of the line DSLRs that cost more than 5k are on the same field with the current mirrorless.


A lot of people think that EVFs are very well usable. A lot of them even think they provide better experience than OVFs.



As is some is some small percentage than yes, i too think they are correct. The majority who bought mirrorless will probably stay with mirrorless...

I was, of course, only speaking for myself regarding eyestrain, but it is a very real issue, and it affects a significant number of people. IIRC, some 25% of the population, will have some level of difficulty with EVFs due to eye strain. For some it won't be more than a minor and ignorable irritation, much like a mosquito bite, for others, it is an increasingly progressive problem that renders EVFs unusable after a very short period of time.
My X-Pro1 had, for me, a totally unusable EVF, it was a near instant migraine for me, and I am not a person who suffers from headaches, but it did have a wonderful OVF. My X-T1 is better, but not enough better that I want to use it day in and day out. Too bad, because I love the ergonomics of the camera, and the Fuji glass is excellent. The X-T3 is getting there providing high performance mode is switched on, but that is a battery killer which severely limits the camera's usability.
Fortunately for me, Pentax made the K1 and D FA* 50/1.4, so I have very little reason to miss my Fuji.

Undoubtedly, most people who buy into mirrorless will stay with it, I don't think anyone has said anything to the contrary.

[photoptimist]

I generally agree with your statements, but only top of the line DSLRs that cost more than 5k are on the same field with the current mirrorless. Talking AF only here. I dont think mirrorless has any edge IQ lead...


A lot of people think that EVFs are very well usable. A lot of them even think they provide better experience than OVFs.



As if some is some small percentage than yes, i too think they are correct. The majority who bought mirrorless will probably stay with mirrorless...

This line of logic keep repeating that same flawed argument that if most people like X and most people think X is better than Y, then everyone will inevitably get X. But that logic is patently wrong. For example, most people with a pet have dogs and surveys show that most people think dogs are better than cats. If you look at surveys, ownership, or sales, dogs are the clear "winner." And yet a huge number of people still have cats and show no signs of switching to dogs.

The point is that It does not matter what most people buy, own, think, prefer, or tolerate. The marketshare of each product whether it is DSLR vs. MILC or dogs vs. cats depends on the respective niches. As long as cat owners think cats are better than dogs, the opinions of dog owners don't matter. As long a DSLR owners think DSLRs are better than MILCs, the opinions of MILC owners don't matter.

[Wheatfield]

This line of logic keep repeating that same flawed argument that if most people like X and most people think X is better than Y, then everyone will inevitably get X. But that logic is patently wrong. For example, most people with a pet have dogs and surveys show that most people think dogs are better than cats. If you look at surveys, ownership, or sales, dogs are the clear "winner." And yet a huge number of people still have cats and show no signs of switching to dogs.

The point is that It does not matter what most people buy, own, think, prefer, or tolerate. The marketshare of each product whether it is DSLR vs. MILC or dogs vs. cats depends on the respective niches. As long as cat owners think cats are better than dogs, the opinions of dog owners don't matter. As long a DSLR owners think DSLRs are better than MILCs, the opinions of MILC owners don't matter.

So the real question we need answered now is this: Do DSLR owners prefer dogs or cats?
To get started, I prefer DSLRs and dogs.

[Trickortreat]

but it is a very real issue, and it affects a significant number of people. IIRC, some 25% of the population, will have some level of difficulty with EVFs due to eye strain.

I know its a real issue. I too get eye strain from EVFs... from any LCDs to be exact, but i think 25% is an overstatement. Not a single user of mirrorles cameras in my photo group ever complained about evfs.

[Wheatfield]

I know its a real issue. I too get eye strain from EVFs... from any LCDs to be exact, but i think 25% is an overstatement. Not a single user of mirrorles cameras in my photo group ever complained about evfs.

It was something I read on this forum by one of the members who historically has known what he's talking about. As mentioned, there are degrees of discomfort, and obviously, there may be a peer pressure within your group to be one of the herd. For a variety of reasons, a person might not mention something unless specifically asked about it, and even then, they may slough off the problem if it is minor for them.
Don't discount the power of herd mentality. If you want to see it in action, check out the trolls for Sony on DPReview. They are annoying as hell and they seem to revel in being as irritating as possible.

[Trickortreat]

This line of logic keep repeating that same flawed argument that if most people like X and most people think X is better than Y, then everyone will inevitably get X. But that logic is patently wrong. For example, most people with a pet have dogs and surveys show that most people think dogs are better than cats. If you look at surveys, ownership, or sales, dogs are the clear "winner." And yet a huge number of people still have cats and show no signs of switching to dogs.

Cats and dogs are living things. People make emotional connection to living things, while they don't to inanimate objects... well some do but those are special cases.
History of photography has shown us when there is some better technology offered, far greater amount of people will use that technology while the "lesser one" becomes extinct or niche.

As long a DSLR owners think DSLRs are better than MILCs, the opinions of MILC owners don't matter.

Well of course - some will never buy a mirrorless, I just dont think its a wise marketing plan for Ricoh to expect to win mirrorless customers back to their DSLRs.

It was something I read on this forum by one of the members who historically has known what he's talking about.

I would only thrust medical scientific papers abut this.. not forum members. He might know alot about photo gear bit i sincerely doubt he's knowledgeable about medical aspects of EVFs concerning human beings.

Don't discount the power of herd mentality.

I know... like i've said few posts earlier - people will buy stuff just because its there on the spec sheet. Someone told them it has to be there and they will get out of their way to make sure that checkmark is on their list.
Marketing... Who the hell needs 4k TV? I surely see 0 difference between fullhd and 4k when watching movies (static pictures are a bit different tho).

[Dan Rentea]

I generally agree with your statements, but only top of the line DSLRs that cost more than 5k are on the same field with the current mirrorless. Talking AF only here. I dont think mirrorless has any edge IQ lead...

I doubt that Sony has something in APS-C line close to Nikon D500 when comes to af-c. Also, D850 or 5D Mark IV are really tough contenders to Sony if you use good glass on them. But these days internet is full of "influencers" who make unboxing "reviews" and also videos about the most popular subject: comparations between systems. People more often change gear (phones, cameras, lenses, etc.) not necessary due to difference in performance between product A and product B but because of the new trend called "marketing influencers".

Anyway, I find very odd seeing photographers complaining about their gear. Why odd? Because I buy a camera that suits my needs and I put it to real tests before buying it so that I can be happy about my purchase instead of complaining on internet that my camera doesn't have x or y feature as good as the camera v from system z. And in my opinion some people think (due internet reviews) that the difference in af speed between mirrorless (Sony in particular) and DSLRs is huge but in reality is just a minor difference if any with no clear winner.

[Trickortreat]

I doubt that Sony has something in APS-C line close to Nikon D500 when comes to af-c

It does - a6400

Also, D850 or 5D Mark IV are really tough contenders to Sony if you use good glass on them

Sony also has a pretty good match here with A7III

And in my opinion some people think (due internet reviews) that the difference in af speed between mirrorless (Sony in particular) and DSLRs is huge but in reality is just a minor difference if any with no clear winner.

AF speed is one thing, but AF tracking is another- Only the best DSLRS can compete even with mid line mirrorless in AF tracking.
For good tracking you have to have high number of AF points that are spread across the frame.

[Wheatfield]

Cats and dogs are living things. People make emotional connection to living things, while they don't to inanimate objects... well some do but those are special cases.
History of photography has shown us when there is some better technology offered, far greater amount of people will use that technology while the "lesser one" becomes extinct or niche.

The same can be said about cars, trucks, pots and pans or kitchen knives. Talk to a construction worker some day, see how he feels about the brand of tool he doesn’t use.

I would only thrust medical scientific papers abut this.. not forum members. He might know alot about photo gear bit i sincerely doubt he's knowledgeable about medical aspects of EVFs concerning human beings.

I believe the person in question is, in fact, a medical doctor.
I’ve taken this about as far as I can with you. Please enjoy your discussion, sorry, but I won’t be part of it with you.

[jack002]

Mirrorless is better. They go to 11.

[Trickortreat]

The same can be said about cars, trucks, pots and pans or kitchen knives. Talk to a construction worker some day, see how he feels about the brand of tool he doesn’t use.

Its a technology issue, not a size or form issue. Not seeing many steam cars on the roads these days...

I’ve taken this about as far as I can with you. Please enjoy your discussion, sorry, but I won’t be part of it with you.

Every discussion comes to an end at some point in time - its a natural course of it...

[Dan Rentea]

It does - a6400

it's not as good as D500, it has Focus sensitivity range -2EV and it shows this weakness in low light and the build quality is mediocre. Not to mention that for Nikon there are the fast tele lenses that Sony lacks (500mm f5.6, 600mm f4). But you don't have to trust me. You can shoot both of them and compare.

Sony also has a pretty good match here with A7III

Good, but as I said initially, there is no leading af when comes to A7 III vs the other two. Again, you don't need to trust me. I'm just telling you my observations as someone who has access to lots of cameras, except the Pentax KP which no one has it where I live and it can't be found for renting either.

AF speed is one thing, but AF tracking is another- Only the best DSLRS can compete even with mid line mirrorless in AF tracking.
For good tracking you have to have high number of AF points that are spread across the frame.

Canon 1Dx Mark II has 61 af points, not 400+ as Sony has. Yet, the af manual of Canon 1Dx mark II has more pages than the Sony's entire manual. 5D Mark IV share the same af system as 1Dx Mark II, but it doesn't have the power horse of 1Dx Mark II. But has enough power to compete with A7 III, A7 R III. Again, you don't have to trust me. But I have quite a lot images from a wedding where the official photographer had A9 and I showed the results of A9 vs 5D Mark IV to a Sony user here, on Pentax forum and he didn't had arguments for the out of focus Sony images despite that he is also using A9.

And as I said in another topic, 2 friends of mine used a 80D and a D7200 (both of them being users of Sony and Fuji) and the results in terms of af and image quality were influenced by some videos that I choosed for them to see if they will be influenced. First week they couldn't tell who is the winner in terms of af and in the second week they thought that they will shoot with different cameras (Canon has 70D and Nikon has D7100 so it was easy to trick them especially since they weren't familiar with the systems) and they picked a winner because they were influenced by the youtube videos.

And this time trust me, I really know what tracking is because I shoot small birds in flight quite often which are far more challenging than any wedding.

[gatorguy]

Its a technology issue, not a size or form issue. .

Actually form does play a significant factor. Some users give more weight to form over function.

[normhead]

Actually form does play a significant factor. Some users give more weight to form over function.

I'm sure those people also see their cameras as fashion accessories as opposed to tool to do a job.

[Trickortreat]

it's not as good as D500, it has Focus sensitivity range -2EV and it shows this weakness in low light and the build quality is mediocre. Not to mention that for Nikon there are the fast tele lenses that Sony lacks (500mm f5.6, 600mm f4). But you don't have to trust me. You can shoot both of them and compare.



Good, but as I said initially, there is no leading af when comes to A7 III vs the other two. Again, you don't need to trust me. I'm just telling you my observations as someone who has access to lots of cameras, except the Pentax KP which no one has it where I live and it can't be found for renting either.



Canon 1Dx Mark II has 61 af points, not 400+ as Sony has. Yet, the af manual of Canon 1Dx mark II has more pages than the Sony's entire manual. 5D Mark IV share the same af system as 1Dx Mark II, but it doesn't have the power horse of 1Dx Mark II. But has enough power to compete with A7 III, A7 R III. Again, you don't have to trust me. But I have quite a lot images from a wedding where the official photographer had A9 and I showed the results of A9 vs 5D Mark IV to a Sony user here, on Pentax forum and he didn't had arguments for the out of focus Sony images despite that he is also using A9.

And as I said in another topic, 2 friends of mine used a 80D and a D7200 (both of them being users of Sony and Fuji) and the results in terms of af and image quality were influenced by some videos that I choosed for them to see if they will be influenced. First week they couldn't tell who is the winner in terms of af and in the second week they thought that they will shoot with different cameras (Canon has 70D and Nikon has D7100 so it was easy to trick them especially since they weren't familiar with the systems) and they picked a winner because they were influenced by the youtube videos.

And this time trust me, I really know what tracking is because I shoot small birds in flight quite often which are far more challenging than any wedding.

I believe what you say. Not saying that Sony AF is better in all regards than Nikons, just that Sony has something to compete. Their tracking is impressive. Not a bad feat they managed to accomplish in such short time they are on market...