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05-21-2019, 01:24 PM   #1
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Denial or truth?

I was expecting Pentax would finally join the mirrorless fray. Not so and maybe for very good reasons.
Not the reasons I read in this article. The reaction of the Pentax official sounds almost otherworldly and alienated.
Is this for real?

Ricoh executives think mirrorless photographers will soon return to DSLRs | Digital Camera World

05-21-2019, 01:33 PM - 1 Like   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asimov Quote
I was expecting Pentax would finally join the mirrorless fray. Not so and maybe for very good reasons.
Not the reasons I read in this article. The reaction of the Pentax official sounds almost otherworldly and alienated.
Is this for real?

Ricoh executives think mirrorless photographers will soon return to DSLRs | Digital Camera World
IMHO mirrorless was a fad. Obviously Pentax officials think so too. We have already had several posts from those returning from mirrorless systems. So, I'm not sure it's the Pentax officials who are otherworldly and alienated if anybody is.

Meanwhile the mirrorless Pentax crowd who just wanted a full frame for their full frame lenses, have already either bought K-1s or will do so soon.
05-21-2019, 01:34 PM - 2 Likes   #3
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I've moved your thread to "Photographic Industry and Professionals"...

In answer to your question, yes - it appears to be for real.

I don't think we can call it denial or truth. It's the view held by Ricoh executives - or, at least, the view they're giving to the press. All we can do is take them at their word, and agree or disagree. We won't know whether they're right or not until further down the road. What's certainly true is, the mirrorless market has now become highly competitive. Anecdotally, sales are not matching expectations for the newer market entrants. So, whatever you and I may think of Ricoh's views, it's decision to eschew mirrorless and stick with DSLR products seems to make sense for now...
05-21-2019, 01:41 PM   #4
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I suspect what they are saying is, it's unrealistic for a company that hasn't put out a camera for their core APS-c flagship market in 6 years to contemplate a whole new mount.

05-21-2019, 01:50 PM - 3 Likes   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I suspect what they are saying is, it's unrealistic for a company that hasn't put out a camera for their core APS-c flagship market in 6 years to contemplate a whole new mount.
Possibly. But I also suspect they've read (and, undoubtedly, been somewhat relieved by) a vocal user base that largely favours the use of optical viewfinders.

I've said many times in these forums, I use both DSLR and mirrorless cameras, and get different benefits from each. If I'm shooting old, manual focus glass for a variety of mounts, I'll use my full frame MILC every time. It's fantastic for that. And I have no trouble with the EVF - it feels fine to me, plus it's ideally suited for manual focus work. But if I want maximum enjoyment from the photographic process (when using primarily, though not always, AF lenses), I'm far more likely to pick up one of my DSLRs.

They're very different shooting experiences. Some folks like DSLRs and dislike mirrorless. Some are the exact opposite. I like both, for different reasons. What I wouldn't like is if my favourite DSLR manufacturer stretched itself too thinly, and put the whole business at greater risk, by moving into an area already swimming with models and - in a few cases - mature lens catalogues. That way madness lies...
05-21-2019, 02:07 PM - 8 Likes   #6
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Mirrorless is just another camera architecture. It's better on some dimensions and worse on others. And some of the most salient aspects of the MILC design such as body size and EVFs are simultaneously loved by some and hated by others.

Mirrorless is currently a fad among those who seek new technology for its own sake or think that different gear will make them a better photographer. Some of those now buying mirrorless for the wrong reason or who don't comprehend how it differs from the DSLR design will likely switch to DSLRs. And just as some DSLR and smartphone users are now buying MILCs because they think it could make them a better photographer, some MILC and smartphone users will buy DSLRs in the future because they think it could make them a better photographer. There's always going to be churn in the camera market both because different photographers have different objective and subjective requirements and because bad random experiences with one brand drive switchers into the arms of other brands.

The fact that neither Nikon's or Canon's MILCs have set the world on fire shows that MILCs are not the universal future of photography. It makes Ricoh's decision to stay out look quite smart. They've deftly avoided getting into a multi-way melee with "the big boys" over a market that may not be a big and attractive and MILC-lovers claimed it was.

Perhaps the most interesting issue is that a DSLR can act like a MILC simply by switching to live view but a MILC can't act like a DSLR. As such, the DSLR truly is the more advanced design -- offering two modes of operation in one body. And if DSLR makers ever develop a hybrid viewfinder, the reasons to stay with MILC will plummet.
05-21-2019, 02:08 PM - 3 Likes   #7
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I think it is clear that there is going to be some balance of people who prefer optical viewfinders to EVFs. I have no idea what the percentages are, but lets say that 40 percent of people like OVFs better, for whatever reason, but Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, Panasonic, and Olympus for the next few years at least, are completely focused on churning out cameras with EVFs. That certainly could be an opportunity for a traditional company to gain some market share by releasing top end SLRs and lenses.
05-21-2019, 02:17 PM - 4 Likes   #8
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I also think people are reading far too much into that interview. I read it twice and in my opinion what was said is open to interpretation. Which can vary considerably.

QuoteQuote:
we believe both mirrorless and DSLR have their own appeal. I imagine, in two or three years, some users who bought mirrorless cameras will return to DSLRs or choose to use both systems, because each has its own benefits.
Sounds like a logical statement of fact, not at all " otherworldly and alienated". Unless of course you are a mirrorless fanatic that thinks production of DSLRs should be stopped immediately..........

QuoteQuote:
some users who bought mirrorless cameras will return to DSLRs or choose to use both
We have already seen this happening. Mirrorless is not the only way to take pictures. I greatly prefer a DSLR. But like @BigMackCam if I were to be using a selection of older manual lenses I suspect I would invest in a FF mirrorless as an additional camera, but not as my only camera. Mirrorless is the "big new thing" and many people like to try out the "big new thing" which is fine. Some like it, some don't and if they don't often they go back to what they had before. That's all that is being said in this interview. No where does he say Pentax will never make a mirrorless. In fact Pentax has already had two different mirrorless systems so arguably they have as much experience in that area as most others.

05-21-2019, 02:19 PM - 3 Likes   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
... And if when DSLR makers ever develop a hybrid viewfinder, the reasons to stay with MILC will plummet.
Fixed that for you...

(Hey, a guy can hope, can't he? )
05-21-2019, 02:35 PM - 1 Like   #10
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...

If Pentax will be the only brand providing DSLRs, this can help them ...


On the other side, keeping KP line with both optical and digital VF would show what preferences of customers are...
05-21-2019, 02:40 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Fixed that for you...

(Hey, a guy can hope, can't he? )
THANKS!

Yes, we can hope. There are at least four different ways to do this (microchannel/OLED focusing screen, pentaprism front injector, pentaprism top projector, and eyepeice mirror) with varying degrees of cost, bulk, and awesomeness.

My personal favorite hybrid mode would end the need for chimping. The mode would be OVF for everything except for a short few-second post-shot review. Just a brief glimpse of the digital image would help me catch a lot of bone-head mistakes in exposure and white balance.
05-21-2019, 02:42 PM - 1 Like   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
They're very different shooting experiences.
I absolutely agree with this. Like Mike, I use both and I use them in very different ways most of the time. However, if I had to choose one over the other...WYSIWYG in the viewfinder - and with information overlays! - is an incredible tool. I don't think mirrorless is a fad.
05-21-2019, 02:48 PM - 2 Likes   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
My personal favorite hybrid mode would end the need for chimping. The mode would be OVF for everything except for a short few-second post-shot review. Just a brief glimpse of the digital image would help me catch a lot of bone-head mistakes in exposure and white balance.
I hadnít thought of this previously, but of course that offers the possibility of deleting the rear screen on the camera body, thereby reducing bulk and weight, and cost. That may not be popular in some quarters but, recalling the experience with the K-3 and the FLU-card (not to mention the K-1), a smart phone can be just as useful in replacing the rear screen, if you feel you need one.
05-21-2019, 02:52 PM - 1 Like   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
THANKS!
Though a select few might argue otherwise, "I'm here to help"

QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Yes, we can hope. There are at least four different ways to do this (microchannel/OLED focusing screen, pentaprism front injector, pentaprism top projector, and eyepeice mirror) with varying degrees of cost, bulk, and awesomeness.
Please PM me the link for your crowd-funding campaign. I'm in

QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
My personal favorite hybrid mode would end the need for chimping. The mode would be OVF for everything except for a short few-second post-shot review. Just a brief glimpse of the digital image would help me catch a lot of bone-head mistakes in exposure and white balance.
I totally see why that would work. Me? I'd love to have an overlayed histogram (JPEG would be fine, raw even better), quick switch from optical to magnified electronic view for manual focus adjustment, perhaps overlayed focus peaking, amplified electronic view for low light situations, back and forth switching to show optical vs electronic when different aspect ratios are required (I love 4:3 and, occasionally, 1:1)... I could think of more. But even just the overlayed histogram would be boon for me. Maybe that says something about my lack of confidence or ability in exposure management... Anyway, I'd like to have it
05-21-2019, 04:39 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asimov Quote
...The reaction of the Pentax official sounds almost otherworldly and alienated.
Is this for real?
It is for real (for now) and Welcome to Pentax's world.
Keep in mind, it can be changed. Notice they are mentioned about "study" a few time but all of them can be read as technical study of difference format/technology.

They say similar thing back when the 2 big names made a lot of money with FF DSLR. Many people jumpship back then. IMHO, If you need / want a Mirrorless now, it is better to move on. They will do it when they want to do it.

-edit-

Another thingis, they might not be able to find a solution to fully commit to the mirrorless yet because of the K-mount. Many of us are still here because of the K-mount and theyknow it well. (See? As much as I want to move on, I still can find a legitimatereason for myself to stick with Pentax!)

Last edited by tokyoscape; 05-21-2019 at 06:23 PM.
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