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06-10-2019, 08:47 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
The mass of working F-mount lenses is greater than the mass of Minolta/Sony A-mount lenses and I don't know if Sony has been able to build up enough business in E-mount lenses to keep its camera customers loyal for the long term, so while moving to E-mount didn't weaken the Sony brand, it didn't really help either. Nikon's Z-body customers can seamlessly switch between Z-mount and F-mount lenses, so promoting Z-mount doesn't hurt their F-mount business and with the current market conditions nothing is going to really grow their business (nor will any other manufacturers be able to generate real growth).
I suppose it doesn't really matter what Nikon "plans" to do, it is the perception of the F mount users that matters and if they begin to doubt Nikon's long term commitment to the mount, that could be problematic. You could be right that F mount users are fine in the long term using their F mount lenses on Z mount cameras with adapters, but then again, some of them may actually like SLR design and not be so happy with it.

Regardless, Nikon is walking a tight rope right now, trying to satisfy SLR customers on one hand, while holding out the other to MILCs and in general trying to feed new gear to customers who are pretty satiated with their existing gear. Barring some new technological development this all means significant scaling back of camera lines and reevaluation of their commitment of resources to existing projects.

06-10-2019, 09:00 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Sadly there is no evidence whatsoever that what you claim has any impact on Nikons well being. For six years in a row they are falling now.
The numbers suggest that there is no "legion" but a "irrelevant handful" of hardcore fans.
Probably the same could be said about Pentax. My photographic journey from Pentax MX (stolen) then replaced with Nikon film (F3, FM2 and FE2) and used from 1982-1999, then replaced with Fuji S1 for a short time before going to Canon EOS for the next 12 years brought me back to Pentax (K5IIs, K3 and K1) and now side stepping to Fuji. Although I am keeping my K1 and the Three Amigo, I must say that tech-wise, Pentax needs to step it up or become a footnote in history. I hate to think that it is too late for Pentax as it is for Nikon or even Canon as I have owned all three systems and enjoyed them immensely despite their shortcomings!!
06-10-2019, 09:26 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by btnapa Quote
Probably the same could be said about Pentax.
Not really. The inferior products from Nikon make more customers run away in a month that Pentax has in total. If Pentax was as bad as them the last product would have been sold 5 years ago.
06-10-2019, 10:41 AM   #49
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I see it, for Nikon & Canon need to go to the 3/3 model (3 APSC/3 FF) for their DSLR's, not the ~7 APSC/4 FF model theyre doing right now. The money they save could go to improveing the 3 models for each sensor size, and into their new mirrorless mount.

06-10-2019, 11:48 AM - 1 Like   #50
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F mount lens can be used on Z mount body but AF does not work for screwdriver lens, that is AF-D lens. In general designers will have more freedom when they are not constrained by backward compatibility. To be fair to existing customers manufacturers must keep this window larger. That way they can balance between old and new. Same rules apply to software products too. It is good to rewrite code once in a while. Some companies honestly rewrite their code but some just change the top layer and give a new name. I suspect that is what Adobe is doing.

Z mount lens released till now are all non-VR and depend on IBIS.
06-10-2019, 12:07 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul the Sunman Quote
After three visits to Japan in the last few years, I am still yet to see anyone else carrying Pentax around their necks. I am genuinely perplexed about where all these purported Japanese Pentax buyers are.
The last time I was in Tokyo, Nagoya, & Kyoto, I only saw one Japanese individual in Kyoto shooting with a Pentax. I did see a few Sony E-mount, Olympus, Nikon, & Canon bodies being used, but almost everyone else was using their cell phones.
06-10-2019, 12:45 PM - 1 Like   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by The Squirrel Mafia Quote
The last time I was in Tokyo, Nagoya, & Kyoto, I only saw one Japanese individual in Kyoto shooting with a Pentax. I did see a few Sony E-mount, Olympus, Nikon, & Canon bodies being used, but almost everyone else was using their cell phones.
I have seen Pentax in Japan for sure. I think - and I am just speculating because only the Japanese know Japanese - but the people I have seen tend to be "serious" about their photography. Also, I have seen Pentax in China too...on the Great Wall.

So Pentax is out there.

06-10-2019, 01:32 PM - 3 Likes   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
The mass of working F-mount lenses is greater than the mass of Minolta/Sony A-mount lenses and I don't know if Sony has been able to build up enough business in E-mount lenses to keep its camera customers loyal for the long term, so while moving to E-mount didn't weaken the Sony brand, it didn't really help either. Nikon's Z-body customers can seamlessly switch between Z-mount and F-mount lenses, so promoting Z-mount doesn't hurt their F-mount business and with the current market conditions nothing is going to really grow their business (nor will any other manufacturers be able to generate real growth).
So as much griping around here about RICOH not providing annual camera bodies, etc. for Pentax, it appears that Pentax is uniquely positioned to handle the market fall-out of declining sales and market share. As the DSLR reaches its zenith in terms of features, speed, pixel saturation, etc., the diehards/loyalists/professionals that rely on quality, size and workability of their equipment will remain. Just as turntable manufacturers continued to produce units for professional and audiophile demand, so will camera manufacturers. The difference is Pentax has built a reputation for quality and evolution of their products. Lenses from 1975 can be used (with minor adaptation) on current bodies. Brilliant really as the shakedown in the camera market continues to flow. Niche makers like Leica will continue to partner with a large conglomerate (Leica/Panasonic-Lumix) to remain viable. IN the same vein, Pentax relies on parent RICOH to support it.

After hearing this latest news from NIkon, I feel Pentax's future is more secure. Just one man's opinion, but the next FF version of the K series will probably be 42 or 48 mp's. At that saturation of pixels, you can create a house mural with appropriate lenses and peripherals.
06-10-2019, 02:05 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by The Squirrel Mafia Quote
almost everyone else was using their cell phones.
This is the big thing I guess.

I was on holiday to France, Bretagne for two weeks. I had only a few really touristic outings.

One was a birding boat ride along some real nice islands that served as birding nest places. So there where some photographers on the boat. Nikon (aps-c with consumerlens) and Canon (70-200mm/f4 lens on one) where there as a Sony and a Fuji.....surprisingly Panasonic was popular in France with Lumix G and with zoom-compact camera's.


One was a great island for walking and having lunch and smartphones where the thing to have. Some compact from Panasonic and an occasional mirrorless or dslr among the big crowd. Some 7.000 visitors on the small Island (Ile de Brehat) and there was little business to make for either camera company.

The third one was Mount Saint Michel and it was busy as probably always. There where some photographers with their heavy backpacks and tripots, but these are getting extinct over the years with their dslr and many lenses. Panasonic was popular, as where Sony and then some dslr under the "normal" tourists.
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06-10-2019, 02:35 PM - 2 Likes   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by LaurenOE Quote
I have seen Pentax in Japan for sure. I think - and I am just speculating because only the Japanese know Japanese - but the people I have seen tend to be "serious" about their photography. Also, I have seen Pentax in China too...on the Great Wall.

So Pentax is out there.
I see Steve (jacamar) in the park with his Pentax because we arrange to meet there, but apart from him , the last two Pentaxes I saw in the park in the wild were this guy in 2014


And this guy more than 2 years ago (2017) with his brand new K-1, DA 150-450 and DFA 15-30 (and holding my Tamron 300 2.3 for me,)
06-10-2019, 03:10 PM   #56
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If I was in the market for a full frame camera I would buy a Panasonic first and a Nikon second. Both fine camera-makers, in fact very fine from many angles. Nikon has a vast and heavily invested user base, in addition, while the Panasonic can use Leica and Sigma lenses. If you want quality then you need to pay for it in either case. Not a surprise. It’s hard to see what the fuss is about.
06-10-2019, 07:32 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
If I was in the market for a full frame camera I would buy a Panasonic first and a Nikon second. Both fine camera-makers, in fact very fine from many angles. Nikon has a vast and heavily invested user base, in addition, while the Panasonic can use Leica and Sigma lenses. If you want quality then you need to pay for it in either case. Not a surprise. It’s hard to see what the fuss is about.
Because you have so much money to blow?

Statements like that should be prefaced by "if I won the lottery."

But I gotta know, why aren't you shooting Nikon if you truly think so much of them? Money where your mouth is and all that.
06-11-2019, 01:13 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Because you have so much money to blow?

Statements like that should be prefaced by "if I won the lottery."

But I gotta know, why aren't you shooting Nikon if you truly think so much of them? Money where your mouth is and all that.
I’m not in the market for a full-frame camera though I’ve handled both and talked to an FF Panny owner. But if Panny keep up their high standards then next time I need a new mirrorless camera I’ll be looking at their M43 stable. My guess is that ILC photography gear will continue to get steadily more costly as volumes fall and unit costs rise. Unwelcome fact of life, though mitigated by “good enough” - far less need to update the camera more than occasionally.
06-11-2019, 01:51 AM   #59
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BCN figures for Japan

In the Japanese market it seems like Nikon and Olympus / mFT are the ones that are dumped the most as well:

Google Übersetzer

The only area which is attracting customers is Fujis instant film business. Mirrorless and DSLR are continuing to collapse.

Canon is the only company there which seems to keep the customers on board (beyond instax). Sony -6.6% , Olympus -13,8% and Nikon -15% are doing much worse.

With Nikon's $ sales figures dropping -28.5% even faster (twice) than customers jumping ship it seems like especially the rich kids are leaving Nikon in masses.
06-11-2019, 02:44 AM - 1 Like   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
If I was in the market for a full frame camera I would buy a Panasonic first and a Nikon second. Both fine camera-makers, in fact very fine from many angles. Nikon has a vast and heavily invested user base, in addition, while the Panasonic can use Leica and Sigma lenses. If you want quality then you need to pay for it in either case. Not a surprise. It’s hard to see what the fuss is about.
Wow. For the body price of the S1r alone you could buy a K-1 II, DFA 28-105, and DFA * 70-200.

I understand the build is nice, but it's nice on the K-1 II. The Panasonic feels way over priced for what it is and if they sell many of them, I would be shocked.
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