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11-05-2020, 09:57 AM - 1 Like   #91
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The recent number for Nikon are out.

Nikon is booking a loss of -$1000 on each sale of $3000 for cameras this year.
https://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/result/pdf/2021/21second_all_e.pdf

That is utterly abysmal.
After already firing 4,000 employees in the last 4 years. The next 1,000-1,500 employees they intend to fire in the next 12 months are all non-Japanese, e.g. likely service and sales.


And then this:

Nikon Malaysia to cease operations
Nikon Malaysia to cease operations - The Malaysian Reserve



QuoteQuote:
Nikon's real problem has been and continues to be the low end. DL, KeyMission, Nikon 1, and virtually all Coolpix completely disintegrated, and DX DSLRs are currently doing the same thing. Nikon has virtually nothing to say in the US$500-1300 price range now. The Z50 is a nice camera, but it won't generate the traction Nikon needs in the low end, particularly given that Nikon is once again neglecting DX lenses (buzz, buzz). Nikon is currently not competitive with Canon, Fujifilm, or Sony in APS-C mirrorless. One camera and two lenses don't give you any traction.
New Camera and Photography Articles, Nikon DSLR camera and lens


bye, bye Nikon.

11-05-2020, 10:22 AM - 2 Likes   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
The recent number for Nikon are out.

Nikon is booking a loss of -$1000 on each sale of $3000 for cameras this year.
...

That is utterly abysmal.
After already firing 4,000 employees in the last 4 years. The next 1,000-1,500 employees they intend to fire in the next 12 months are all non-Japanese, e.g. likely service and sales.


And then this:

Nikon Malaysia to cease operations
...

...
bye, bye Nikon.
I truly hope that's not the case. I suspect such a conclusion is at best premature, since every photographic equipment manufacturer is having a tough time during this pandemic.

I haven't been a Nikon user since 2009, but there's no denying it makes fantastic cameras and lenses. There's a lot of folks invested in its DSLR and mirrorless platforms, and many employees dependent on the company for their living. Clearly there will have to be some casualties in that area to reduce costs, and that's a hard pill to swallow.

Let's all of us hope Nikon's action plan will secure the company's future and return it to operating profit in the not too distant future... for the benefit of its employees, customers and the photographic industry as a whole.
11-05-2020, 10:27 AM - 1 Like   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Let's all of us hope Nikon's action plan will secure the company's future and return it to operating profit in the not too distant future... for the benefit of its employees, customers and the photographic industry as a whole.
I fully agree, it will be a poor place if Sony win out and Nikon fails and I don't believe they will at all.
11-05-2020, 01:53 PM   #94
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The problem all the big companies are facing is the mass market infrastructure that has suddenly become so many boat anchors.
Sony, Nikon, Canon, and to a lesser extent Fuji and Panasonic have massive infrastructures eating away at their bottom lines.
These are primarily mass market companies depending on high sales volumes to make up for low per unit margins.

And now, the mass market is imploding.

11-05-2020, 02:32 PM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
And now, the mass market is imploding.
And now the brainiac managers all simultaneous decide to go after the handful remaining rich nerds with products where even the nerds have issues to see a differentiation or progress.

No need for any emotions if one or more closes shop.
11-05-2020, 02:50 PM - 3 Likes   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
And now the brainiac managers all simultaneous decide to go after the handful remaining rich nerds with products where even the nerds have issues to see a differentiation or progress.

No need for any emotions if one or more closes shop.
What? No sadness for all those who would lose their jobs? No sympathy for fellow photographers whose brand of choice would be gone? No regret that the industry as a whole might miss out on future developments from the company? No concerns for the impact on third party brands that manufacture compatible equipment? No emotions at all? With respect, that's awfully cold
11-05-2020, 02:59 PM - 1 Like   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
And now the brainiac managers all simultaneous decide to go after the handful remaining rich nerds with products where even the nerds have issues to see a differentiation or progress.

No need for any emotions if one or more closes shop.
They've been going after the rich nerds all along. The problem is those sales won't support the entry level infrastructure. In the past, entry level has underwritten the pro market.
This is why Pentax is in a relatively good position. While they do have some sort of entry level equipment, they don't have the recent history of high sales volume and the support infrastructure that accompanies it.
There is going to be carnage in the industry, but Pentax should be relatively immune.

11-05-2020, 04:16 PM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Nikon recommendation: sell! sell! sell!
I better move fast and get that vintage Nikon F Photomic I've wanted for so many years !
11-06-2020, 03:54 AM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
What? No sadness for all those who would lose their jobs?
For the employees certainly. But they get problems with any change of market share and following firings. That is not restricted to closing shop.

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
No sympathy for fellow photographers whose brand of choice would be gone?
If Pentax would close down I would be sad, but certainly not a person requiring sympathy from other people. The current real world offers a lot more important things which let me feel sympathy for other humans (and can not be discussed here ) .

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
No regret that the industry as a whole might miss out on future developments from the company?
No. That all balances out.

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
No concerns for the impact on third party brands that manufacture compatible equipment?
In the case of a static market size the 3rd parties just switch over to support the others.

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
No emotions at all? With respect, that's awfully cold
I like reciprocal relationships. On the day a company shows me real individual case tailored emotions when I stop buying their products I will show emotions if if closes shop.
That might be the case for a small business where I know the owner and he provides excellent service and remembers my name by heart. That business closing will touch me.
That will not be the case for any companies with internet contact forms and call centers. They cold, me cold.
11-06-2020, 04:04 AM - 1 Like   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I truly hope that's not the case. I suspect such a conclusion is at best premature, since every photographic equipment manufacturer is having a tough time during this pandemic.

I haven't been a Nikon user since 2009, but there's no denying it makes fantastic cameras and lenses. There's a lot of folks invested in its DSLR and mirrorless platforms, and many employees dependent on the company for their living. Clearly there will have to be some casualties in that area to reduce costs, and that's a hard pill to swallow.

Let's all of us hope Nikon's action plan will secure the company's future and return it to operating profit in the not too distant future... for the benefit of its employees, customers and the photographic industry as a whole.
Nikon has sunk a huge amount of money going MILC and for the most part, recreating a similar line up to their F mount line up. It seems like they had a fairly seamless operation with regard to using lenses from older cameras, the problem was that the shift didn't add many new users.

I think going forward Nikon needs to: (1) Cut down on number of camera lines. They simply have too many. This probably means ditching the majority of their SLR lines, maybe just keeping the top end ones. They have too many MILCs too (but not enough APS-C ones). (2) Charge more for their cameras. This is the tough ask. Sony and Canon both have discounted some of their MILCs to the point that it is unlikely that Nikon can make back their R and D selling at similar prices. (3) Cut factories and staff. This is a new market. Nikon needs to plan for the eventuality that they will need to make a go of it with only a 10 percent market share -- of a market that is shrunk considerably from the glory days.

I don't want to see Nikon go away, but I am fearful that they are on the path of Olympus, where they sell lots of gear, but don't actually make money on most of it -- and Nikon doesn't have a huge medical division supporting their losses.
11-06-2020, 04:14 AM - 2 Likes   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
For the employees certainly. But they get problems with any change of market share and following firings. That is not restricted to closing shop.
No, unemployment doesn't only occur due to company closure... but it's most certainly one of the bigger reasons. It's generally better for employees if things don't reach that point

QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
If Pentax would close down I would be sad, but certainly not a person requiring sympathy from other people. The current real world offers a lot more important things which let me feel sympathy for other humans (and can not be discussed here ) .
I'm not suggesting that folks require your sympathy... but I'd feel at least a little bad for someone who'd invested hard-earned funds in a camera system over the years, only to have the company fold. That doesn't take anything away from the balance of sympathy I feel for folks affected by more serious issues.

QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
No. That all balances out.
So Nikon never developed anything of its own, and remaining companies would be guaranteed to develop everything Nikon might if it continued to exist? I don't buy that at all...

QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
In the case of a static market size the 3rd parties just switch over to support the others.
Possibly... but there's R&D cost involved in doing that, not to mention the reduction in value of any stock held on the outgoing brand.

QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
I like reciprocal relationships. On the day a company shows me real individual case tailored emotions when I stop buying their products I will show emotions if if closes shop.
That might be the case for a small business where I know the owner and he provides excellent service and remembers my name by heart. That business closing will touch me.
That will not be the case for any companies with internet contact forms and call centers. They cold, me cold.
You seem to be looking at this in terms of the company. I don't feel emotion for companies either. Most of them are vehicles for profit at my expense, so I typically have a transactional, reciprocal relationship with them. They have something I want - a product - and I have something they want - my money (of course, I want them to do well so they continue to make things I might want or need). It's the impact of company closure on individuals and the industry that I feel deserves my emotion (in sensible proportion, of course).

I guess we're just different.

Anyway, thanks for the financial data. It's interesting if sobering reading...

Last edited by BigMackCam; 11-06-2020 at 04:21 AM.
11-06-2020, 04:19 AM   #102
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Hi all, may I stick my 2 pennyworth in this conflab Pentax has given me over all more than I can cope with I know Canon Nikon surprise a bit with there new mirroless? stuff but each system has its foibles and quirk's I am and always have been happy with the strength and ruggedness of Pentax from K1000 645 6x7 until now so why change, to look good ? just my interest and yes I have enough in the bank to buy another system but, but, kind regards all Ian
11-06-2020, 10:36 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
The recent number for Nikon are out.

Nikon is booking a loss of -$1000 on each sale of $3000 for cameras this year.
https://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/result/pdf/2021/21second_all_e.pdf

(...)
Note that the operating loss booked by Imaging Products in FY2021 Q2 (July to September 2020), which amounts to ¥19.3bn, includes ¥1bn of restructuring expenses and ¥15.6bn of 'impairment losses of non-current assets', themselves triggered by the decision to stop DSLR production in the Miyagi factory (which will focus on the manufacturing of LiDARs, these laser imaging, detection, and ranging devices used in particular in self-driving cars) and to consolidate camera manufacturing in Thailand.
11-06-2020, 12:49 PM - 1 Like   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
They've been going after the rich nerds all along. The problem is those sales won't support the entry level infrastructure. In the past, entry level has underwritten the pro market.
This is why Pentax is in a relatively good position. While they do have some sort of entry level equipment, they don't have the recent history of high sales volume and the support infrastructure that accompanies it.
There is going to be carnage in the industry, but Pentax should be relatively immune.
Let's say more resilient, but they are certainly in a better position than the top-heavy bigger players. Nikon in particular is concerning because cameras are most of the entire company. Well, I think Sony treats the different divisions more or less like their own self-contained things (notwithstanding collaborations between Semiconductor and Imaging, I guess... the stacked FF sensor of the A9 is Sony only AFAIK?), so they might just go "lol nope" and drop cameras like they did Vaio. Canon should be resilient enough to at least survive in some way, methinks.

Source: pulled straight out of my very hurt backside after a ten mile hike. Don't trust my brain today .
11-06-2020, 01:10 PM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
so they might just go "lol nope" and drop cameras like they did Vaio.
But JIP already bought Olympus...
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