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06-11-2019, 11:56 PM - 1 Like   #1
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Camera marketing jokes

Sony announced long lenses (600 f4, 200-600), that other brands had for years already. I read so much praise about that, wow.

But I realized something crazy, and I can't stop laughing:
- When Sony and Fuji introduced mirrorless models that had AF inferior to the AF capabilities of DSLR, buyer's arguments were "small size", although battery life was a pain, and AFS very slow and AF tracking not even working properly (See X-Pro1 with firmware versions within the first 3 years of it's life). Yet, the marketing money managed to convince customers to made wrong purchase decisions.

- Now 2019, Sony announce long lenses, last comers to market, at prices higher than ever before (Canon / Nikon have had long lenses with experience in the field by nature and wildlife photographer for ages). Well, Sony aren't much different from what Canon and Nikon have, but I have never seen DPReview promoting so much Canon and Nikon 600 f4 than they do for the Sony 600 f4. And it's kinda presented as a new thing, almost innovation. I don't even remember having seen articles and videos on DPR for the Canon or Nikon 600 f4.

Now , how logical are those mirrorless camera designs, size and tiny grips, with those jumbo lenses?

I just can't comprehend how much camera business success revolve around marketing logic that contradicts itself over the years.
When I think about the logical flaw for a minute, and read Sony user desires aroused by Sony, I really can't stop laughing, it's really hilarious...

Last but not least, Canon and Nikon can't announce long lenses and pay DPR to make a great video and articles about 600 f4 , 400 f2.8 simply because they had several versions of each of those lenses.
Sony looks great on DPR by marketing effect, while in reality they are very very late to offer long lenses.

06-12-2019, 01:13 AM   #2
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To be fair, $$$ony puts aloooot of special juice in their fruit punch.
06-12-2019, 01:53 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by disconnekt Quote
To be fair, $$$ony puts aloooot of special juice in their fruit punch.
When I was infected by the LBA / GAS virus, I'd be seduced and convinced by any novelty looking shiny, I'd be writing the same kind of sentence your just wrote.
After a lot of practice and taking a step back, I don't buy into promotional material anymore. In reality, desire is aroused (pumping up chemicals in the brain) up to the point of spending the money, playing with a new toy for a couple of months taking a lot of test pictures that show that the camera and lens does work very well, but them the subject matter in front of the lens reveal the sad truth.
06-12-2019, 02:47 AM   #4
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It really is just what is new and shiny. To me, the big "new" thing (which isn't so new any more) is fresnel lens design which can reduce size of long lenses pretty dramatically. The Canon 300mm f4 is 90 by 221 mm and weighs 1190 g and the newer designed the Nikon 300mm f4 is 89 by 147.5mm and weighs 755 g. But I don't know that Sony has a 300mm f4 lens, do they? Maybe an alpha mount one that can be used with an adapter. To me, that sort of lens would make sense before releasing a 300mm f2.8, 600mm f4.

Lens design is what it is. The same techniques can be applied to SLR and MILC lenses and if you have the same performance and the same registration distance, the end resulting lens is going to be the same size.

06-12-2019, 02:59 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
To me, the big "new" thing (which isn't so new any more) is fresnel lens design which can reduce size of long lenses pretty dramatically.
I agree, the Fresnel design from Nikon significantly reduce the size of long lenses, their 300 f4 is tiny, 500 f5.6 still significantly smaller lighter than conventional 500mm designs. No "game changer" on Sony side IMO, I feel it's more about Sony making waves in the news, such as when repeatedly claiming being number 1 in the US.
06-12-2019, 03:09 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I agree, the Fresnel design from Nikon significantly reduce the size of long lenses, their 300 f4 is tiny, 500 f5.6 still significantly smaller lighter than conventional 500mm designs. No "game changer" on Sony side IMO, I feel it's more about Sony making waves in the news, such as when repeatedly claiming being number 1 in the US.
Well, from DP Review's standpoint, anything new in the MILC department, particularly if it is from Sony, is awesome. But how many copies of a 600mm f4 lens are actually sold will be small. The whole MILC "game changer" thing is a bit annoying but as we've said multiple times before, for most types of photography, there is no difference between MILCs and SLRs. The K-1 is bigger than most full frame MILCs, but not hugely so and the lenses are similar in size.

I would like to see Pentax develop some newer versions of their 200mm and 300mm primes with new motors and fresnel design. That's the sort of thing that would be real news for Pentaxians.
06-12-2019, 05:09 AM   #7
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Ricoh's exetutive's statement about people going back to DSLR dont sound to crazy after all now!
06-12-2019, 06:07 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Nikon 300mm f4 is 89 by 147.5mm and weighs 755 g.
I held one a few months ago when one of my buddies put his brand new one into my hands to see if i was impressed. I was impressed. It's noticeably lighter than my DA* 60-250.

I can't imagine this won't be the way of the future.

06-12-2019, 08:11 AM   #9
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I was hoping for a joke thread and had a few ready (Bruce Jenner (Minolta) and Ashton Kutcher (Nikon) as brand spokes persons and a few others).


Steve
06-12-2019, 08:29 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I was hoping for a joke thread and had a few ready (Bruce Jenner (Minolta) and Ashton Kutcher (Nikon) as brand spokes persons and a few others).
It must be interesting (and maybe boring) to observe new product releases for someone who has seen camera and lens released over a significant chunk of camera history.
06-12-2019, 08:34 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
It must be interesting (and maybe boring) to observe new product releases for someone who has seen camera and lens released over a significant chunk of camera history.
I still remember all the hype when the Spotmatic came out, and all the denial in Canon and Nikon camps. It taught me something, technical excellence has little to do with it. Brand loyalty is bigger mover of sales than technical innovation. Not one of my 20 classmates switched from Nikon or Canon to Pentax, even though it meant using hand held light meters with there DSLRs, and that the lens library was all Pentax. If you wanted to borrow a lens you needed a Pentax body. They preferred to just trudge along with their at the time antiquated gear.

Despite everyone going on about what Pentax has to do, think about the SPotmatic had a built in TTL light meter, meaning you didn't have to blow the equivalent of about $200 on one, and the use of free lenses for 3 years, and an incredibly streamlined exposure process, and people still didn't switch. Now people say "if only Pentax had "better AF" or whatever, People who haven't been around for a while underestimate how hard it is to move most camera users off their favourite brand.

Of course at that time half of us were already shooting Pentax, so it was really only 10 that preferred to stay in the dark ages.

Last edited by normhead; 06-12-2019 at 09:17 AM.
06-12-2019, 09:07 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
It must be interesting (and maybe boring) to observe new product releases for someone who has seen camera and lens released over a significant chunk of camera history.
To be honest...yes...

It is still hard to believe that I can remember when both TTL metering and "Auto" aperture actuation were heavily-marketed features and makers might field three or four models at most for a particular camera type. Anything truly new was big news.


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06-12-2019, 09:23 AM - 1 Like   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
To be honest...yes...

It is still hard to believe that I can remember when both TTL metering and "Auto" aperture actuation were heavily-marketed features and makers might field three or four models at most for a particular camera type. Anything truly new was big news.


Steve
When you've heard folks argue they didn't need TTL metering or Auto-aperture and look at the things people say you "need" today, like 60 fps etc, you have real perspective on what a load of nonsense modern marketing is for a lot of shooters.

No one today would dream of introducing a new model without TTL or auto aperture, yet at one time they were deemed ignorable by brand owners to whom they were not available. And now folks claim 4 fps isn't good enough.

We used to get a frame every 10 seconds. And it was good enough.

Read the light meter, set the aperture on the lens and shutter speed on the camera, check the DoF guide, calculate your hyperlocal, recheck the light to make sure it hadn't changed, take the picture.

Last edited by normhead; 06-12-2019 at 09:44 AM.
06-12-2019, 11:32 AM - 1 Like   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
...

I would like to see Pentax develop some newer versions of their 200mm and 300mm primes with new motors and fresnel design. That's the sort of thing that would be real news for Pentaxians.
One would expect that a Fresnel lens, even a perfectly constructed one, would have higher aberrations than a smooth surface lens of the same base curvature, and this would be further degraded off-axis where the side walls of each annular section are included in some of the light paths. Computational post-processing may be able to address much of this, but (a), surely it is not presently in all cameras that might use the Fresnel lenses, and (b), even with extravagant processing, there would be some residual effects that might show up as haze or blur. Without seeing actual measurement results showing Fresnel lens effects can be made negligible, I wouldn't myself recommend Pentax leap into that pit. And my Pentax systems have the most weight to lose. [Obligatory joke]

In the above comment, I want to note that I am not considering a diamond turned lens to be a Fresnel lens, because diamond turned lenses have annular cut widths smaller than the wavelength of the light being refracted, thereby minimizing in-band scatter, and in their case I think the summation integral of the point spread function is pretty much additive into the desired circular aperture PSF, at least insofar as pixels 10X the wavelength can measure.
06-12-2019, 11:54 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by kaseki Quote
One would expect that a Fresnel lens, even a perfectly constructed one, would have higher aberrations than a smooth surface lens of the same base curvatur
I guess Nikon have found ways to work around that.
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