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07-20-2019, 10:59 AM - 1 Like   #16
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People need to have some perspective on this (and many other things, imo!).


In terms of work, it's use-case. My 645Z and K1 upgraded exceeds the quality of the gear on hand at my place of work. I've actually been told to limit my file sizes because the larger files aren't necessary (this is a museum!) for most of our shooting.

In terms of innovation, it's best case---it would be silly to limit innovation.

There's a lot of breathlessness about cameras these days. People seem to be stuck in the 2000's, when mp increases were generally needed. I am "stuck" with my 5 y.o. 645Z, which is still brilliant after 5 years. That's saying something these days. And for what I use it for, my K1 upgraded is more than adequate.

I also think Pentax is smart not to overextend itself in a mad rat race. They can survive as niche, and I don't mind using niche products at all.

07-20-2019, 11:18 AM - 2 Likes   #17
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I have a
  • K10D
  • K-01
  • K5lls (bought recently)
  • KP
  • K-1 Mk1
I really only need the KP or K-1, but all the cameras still work very well and produce great image files. For the most part each camera offers something its predecessor doesn’t, and something its followers don’t as well, so I’ve kept them. I’d say the K10D has served its purpose and the K-01 is a collectible now. The K5lls is a conundrum. I don’t like the limitations compared to the KP but the sensor is sublime. OTOH I was always happy with the similar K-01 sensor.

I seriously wonder what the next camera will offer that isn’t satisfied by the cameras I already have.
07-20-2019, 12:31 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I seriously wonder what the next camera will offer that isnít satisfied by the cameras I already have.
Imagine if Ricoh were to engineer a larger, brighter OVF...
07-20-2019, 01:01 PM - 1 Like   #19
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In the 1980's I wanted to get into medium format photography. I had dipped my toe into the medium format lake...getting a Yashicamat 124 G twin lens reflex and I enjoyed the bigger negative and for me, the slow down in focus and composition process. The Yashica TLR had a waist level finder and I used...mostly...a tripod with the camera.

But I wanted more, specifically a Pentax 6 X 7 SLR, but that was more than I wanted to spend. So I checked out the Mamiya line of medium format and bought a new 220 Pro F, TLR. Waist level finder, bellows...and Mamiya had some great lenses in their TLR system.

I bought an 80 F 2.8 normal, 65mm wide angle and 180 telephoto and I've had a lot of fun and some really good pics with that Mamiya system, which I've had approaching 35 years. All still works well to this day...and when I bought my 220 Pro F body in , around '85 or so...I think Mamiya had been cranking out their interchangeable lens TLR (the only TLR with interchangeable lenses, I believe) since the mid 1950's with not a whole lot of changes.

Absolutely antediluvian !!

When I first got into photography, that's kind of what I remember 'good' cameras being like. Not a whole lot of changes. Nikon brought out their F model SLR, Leica had their rangefinder, Pentax had their Spotmatic and all these firms seemed to keep the bodies relatively unchanged for a number of years, but did bring out new lenses on a regular basis..well maybe not Leica so much, however Pentax and Nikon kind of did things that way.

I know digital is somewhat different and the pace of development rolls along at a bit faster speed. But on the other hand, my two current latest cameras...my K1 (out new in 2016) and my Ricoh GR ll (was it 2013 when it first came out ?) seem to offer everything me and my skill level want and I guess they're already out of date, both having been superseded by the latest, greatest and newer models.

Yep, marketing does play a significant part and more sales keeps the factories humming...but there are literally big costs both to consumer and factories doing things that way.

Frankly I tend to go for what I 'need', not so much what I may want and I sometimes even think that what I think I 'need' is sometimes suspect.

Y'know if my old 1985 Mamiya 220 TLR had a digital back and a built in light meter..what more would I need. Oh yeah, maybe ISO from 80 to 12,500 and an automatic leaf shutter...and aperture priority... would be very nice.

07-20-2019, 01:47 PM - 1 Like   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Imagine if Ricoh were to engineer a larger, brighter OVF...
I don’t know - the K-1 viewfinder works pretty well for me. I think it is close to the LX with FA-1W finder and SA-23 focusing screen I shot today.

Last edited by monochrome; 07-20-2019 at 07:08 PM.
07-20-2019, 02:53 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kerrowdown Quote
I use Macs for that reason too... they seem to take a bit longer to get old, just like me.

Agree. my 10 year old iMac and 10 year old MacBook Pro are still in use and performing well for most tasks. Still useful and in use even after I just bought a new iMac. The new model, however really has the older ones beat for display quality and speed in photo editing.
Similarly my K-5 and K-3 seem to be in no hurry becoming obsolete for my needs.
07-20-2019, 03:06 PM   #22
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I guess I think that Sony turns out cameras the way that computer makers turn out computers. There is always something coming that is better in one way or another. Better eye AF or better EVF or better video or higher megapixels are all things that Sony has churned out as reasons to get their shiniest cameras.

The problem is at least partially that when Sony bumps up read out speeds (necessary for better video and faster frame rates) and resolution, dynamic range really seems to suffer. Just as much, I don't think most of these spec monsters speak to folks taking lots of photos, but to gear heads who are chasing the newest and the fastest gear out there.
07-21-2019, 02:11 PM   #23
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A friend on the west coast works closely with Ricoh and seems stressed by their approach to sales, quotas and penchant for hard core number crunching. It may not bode well for the future of Pentax or the Ricoh camera brands. With dedicated camera sales being decimated world wide by smart phones, I would be surprised if we get nothing more than incremental updates and repackaging of existing models. The bean counters are apparently alive and well at Ricoh.

07-21-2019, 08:40 PM - 1 Like   #24
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Bean counters are alive and well everywhere. From industry to industry, they bond over their inability to see beyond their spreadsheet and general lack of touch with reality.

Example: engineering department wanted to install a backup for a critical unit (cost: around 10000Ä. If such equipment failed, it would completely stop production for as long as it was out of order. This, on a pretty large plant). Reasons cited: "preventing loss is not an investment because it doesn't have a ROI" and "this is financially unsound, just fix it if it breaks".

Spoiler alert: the stupid thing broke. It took almost two hours to get back on. Revenue loss? Around 20 bloody thousand. Twice as much as the unit.

That said, it's maybe possible that the Excel Men at Ricoh are simply doing their work (they ARE good at number crunching, and that is needed no matter how the entire Operation or Maintenance departments groan about it). Can't say anything without the specifics, obviously... But Ricoh being Japanese, I wouldn't be surprised if the NA division was basically large scale bean counting/sales/marketing (hah, marketing ).
07-22-2019, 03:19 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
Bean counters are alive and well everywhere. From industry to industry, they bond over their inability to see beyond their spreadsheet and general lack of touch with reality.

Example: engineering department wanted to install a backup for a critical unit (cost: around 10000Ä. If such equipment failed, it would completely stop production for as long as it was out of order. This, on a pretty large plant). Reasons cited: "preventing loss is not an investment because it doesn't have a ROI" and "this is financially unsound, just fix it if it breaks".
...
It is strange that it is engineers, not bean counters, who have to deal with risk analysis (probability of failure vs. cost of failure). After the extravagant by any measure cost of failure of the Fukushima Dai Ichi facility, one might think Japanese bean counters (and their managements) would have had some remedial education forced upon them.
07-22-2019, 07:41 AM   #26
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One might think so, but that precludes both common sense and being willing to admit that you royally screwed up. Fukushima (and many other plant accidents) was a disaster waiting to happen, but people will want a couple heads to roll and then nothing else actually changes, no responsibilities are taken, and the ones who pay, as usual, are the boots on the ground who have to fix the mess. While the civilians around drop. :shrugs:
It's beyond messed up.
08-06-2019, 03:10 AM - 1 Like   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by kaseki Quote
It is strange that it is engineers, not bean counters, who have to deal with risk analysis (probability of failure vs. cost of failure). After the extravagant by any measure cost of failure of the Fukushima Dai Ichi facility, one might think Japanese bean counters (and their managements) would have had some remedial education forced upon them.
About bean counters, once upon a time, the industry was slower paced, executives had to get experience in various positions in a company from bottom to up, in order to have a broad understanding of how various aspects of the business worked. This time is over, a lot of executives skip the learning path, go straight into higher ranks with zero experience at lower positions, they lift the accounts for looking good in the short term, everything is shorter term now. If decisions screw up the business in the long term , most likely the executive moved on already before he has to be responsible for his past decisions. Some people in my field call it "executives like Lukcy Luke who move faster than their shadow": when something smell bad, just move to another position before anyone finds out...

---------- Post added 06-08-19 at 12:14 ----------

About obsolescence, in general, releases of new models is less frequent for professional camera equipment. Frequent model changes, together with smaller sensors and lost of software features, is a good indicator that the products are aimed a the consumer audience. Things are more relaxed in the medium format sections, usually medium format shooter care more about photography than they care about owning the latest gizmo.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 08-06-2019 at 03:15 AM.
08-06-2019, 05:34 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
... Things are more relaxed in the medium format sections, usually medium format shooter care more about photography than they care about owning the latest gizmo.
A philosophy I am trying to embrace in my old age.
08-06-2019, 05:43 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
About bean counters, once upon a time, the industry was slower paced, executives had to get experience in various positions in a company from bottom to up, in order to have a broad understanding of how various aspects of the business worked. This time is over, a lot of executives skip the learning path, go straight into higher ranks with zero experience at lower positions, they lift the accounts for looking good in the short term, everything is shorter term now. If decisions screw up the business in the long term , most likely the executive moved on already before he has to be responsible for his past decisions. Some people in my field call it "executives like Lukcy Luke who move faster than their shadow": when something smell bad, just move to another position before anyone finds out...

---------- Post added 06-08-19 at 12:14 ----------

About obsolescence, in general, releases of new models is less frequent for professional camera equipment. Frequent model changes, together with smaller sensors and lost of software features, is a good indicator that the products are aimed a the consumer audience. Things are more relaxed in the medium format sections, usually medium format shooter care more about photography than they care about owning the latest gizmo.
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