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08-04-2019, 06:33 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Yes, the Chinese would have to pay the bill because they are the creditors. We borrow them money to import the products they make. It's locked up.
You might want to fact check that.

08-04-2019, 08:17 PM - 1 Like   #32
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The Gross External Debt of the United States is $6,584,373 Million (a bit more than $6.5 Trillion). Gross external debt is the overall magnitude of U.S. indebtedness to foreigners, meaning the balance is either owned by the US Public internally or is owned by other US Government entities such as the Social Security Administration or the Federal Reserve Bank.

As of June 2019, federal debt held by the public was $16.17 trillion and intragovernmental holdings were $5.86 trillion, for a total national debt of $22.03 trillion. At the end of 2018, debt held by the public was approximately 76.4% of GDP, and approximately 39% of the debt held by the public was owned by foreigners. The United States has the largest external debt in the world. In 2017, the US debt-to-GDP ratio was ranked 43rd highest out of 207 countries. The Congressional Budget Office forecast in April 2018 that debt held by the public will rise to nearly 100% of GDP by 2028, perhaps higher if current policies are extended beyond their scheduled expiration date.

Total Public Debt is presently 104.3% of GDP. The prior peak was 113% at the end of WWll. The Public Debt to GDP Ratio has been stable since mid 2016, but increased from 73% to 104% between Q4/2008 and Q4/2016.

Source: Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

Last edited by monochrome; 08-04-2019 at 08:36 PM.
08-05-2019, 11:41 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Yes well, guess who gets to pay for the tariffs? It's always the end user.
Theres only few things end users have to pay. A lot of once lucrative businesses went bancrupt because people really didnt care to pay premium prices for stuff they really dont need...
08-05-2019, 12:41 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
Theres only few things end users have to pay. A lot of once lucrative businesses went bancrupt because people really didnt care to pay premium prices for stuff they really dont need...
Yeah, we only pay for the stuff from concept to design to manufacture to shipping, middlemen, final retailer, tariffs, duties, and taxes, as well as profit margins for everyone who putís their hands on it.
Iím not sure what part of the supply chain you think is free, or why you think companies donít pass the cost of duties, tariffs and taxes along to the end user along with every other cost that goes into the manufacture.
Are you saying that you, as an end user, is not paying out the cost of taxes and tariffs on products? If that is what you are saying, you have been woefully mislead.

08-05-2019, 12:47 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Yeah, we only pay for the stuff from concept to design to manufacture to shipping, middlemen, final retailer, tariffs, duties, and taxes, as well as profit margins for everyone who put’s their hands on it.
I’m not sure what part of the supply chain you think is free, or why you think companies don’t pass the cost of duties, tariffs and taxes along to the end user along with every other cost that goes into the manufacture.
Are you saying that you, as an end user, is not paying out the cost of taxes and tariffs on products? If that is what you are saying, you have been woefully mislead.

yep, im not paying for taxes and tariffs and any of the supply chain for stuff i find overpriced for any reason. not that i cant. i just wont...
08-05-2019, 02:08 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The Gross External Debt of the United States is $6,584,373 Million (a bit more than $6.5 Trillion). Gross external debt is the overall magnitude of U.S. indebtedness to foreigners, meaning the balance is either owned by the US Public internally or is owned by other US Government entities such as the Social Security Administration or the Federal Reserve Bank.

As of June 2019, federal debt held by the public was $16.17 trillion and intragovernmental holdings were $5.86 trillion, for a total national debt of $22.03 trillion. At the end of 2018, debt held by the public was approximately 76.4% of GDP, and approximately 39% of the debt held by the public was owned by foreigners. The United States has the largest external debt in the world. In 2017, the US debt-to-GDP ratio was ranked 43rd highest out of 207 countries. The Congressional Budget Office forecast in April 2018 that debt held by the public will rise to nearly 100% of GDP by 2028, perhaps higher if current policies are extended beyond their scheduled expiration date.

Total Public Debt is presently 104.3% of GDP. The prior peak was 113% at the end of WWll. The Public Debt to GDP Ratio has been stable since mid 2016, but increased from 73% to 104% between Q4/2008 and Q4/2016.

Source: Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis
What is not widely appreciated is that the petro-dollar, as it is called, is used as a form of payment world-wide. This requires an imbalance in trade payments to provide the needed liquidity as world trade increases, and this forms a large external US debt that cannot be called by the debt holders without changing the present structure of world trade finance. Whether the creation of the petro-dollar was immoral or not is a different question.

Deficit spending that increases the internal debt has been complained about for decades (more than a century I would guess). It is a natural consequence of actions taken to convert the USA from a republic to a democracy. Once people can vote to get more free stuff than they have to pay for with their taxes, deficit spending will increase, probably exponentially, until the process breaks. The time is not too distant to when all Government borrowing has to be spent on debt interest payments. This will be the inception of a financial death spiral.
08-05-2019, 02:11 PM - 3 Likes   #37
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Probably time to get back to camera shipments...
08-05-2019, 03:39 PM - 1 Like   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
yep, im not paying for taxes and tariffs and any of the supply chain for stuff i find overpriced for any reason. not that i cant. i just wont...
You are paying it on whatever you purchase, no matter what the price.Given today’s news, I suspect you are going to have far more over priced products to eschew.

08-06-2019, 03:01 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
You are paying it on whatever you purchase, no matter what the price.Given todayís news, I suspect you are going to have far more over priced products to eschew.
Yep im paying it but not on stuff i dont really need. I happily closed my wallet for overpriced luxury products and ill just point my money somewhere where it can make a proffit or ill just leave it sitting in the bank till markets uncrazy themselves.
08-06-2019, 04:12 AM   #40
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When everyone does that, companies stop getting money for their products and large sectors crash, sending workers into unemployment, which lowers the money they can spend in other market sectors, which causes the economy to contract. The end result is that everyone is poorer except for the super rich guys who somehow get richer.

The alternative is to go on an endless spiral of purchases because capitalism and consumerism are great ideas.

More on topic, if consumers start thinking that photography is a luxury hobby (like golf, sports cars, or playing Warhammer 40k [hah]) then it *will* end up as one. The shrinkage of the entry- and mid-level ranges will send the message of "only high-end cameras are sold profitably".
08-06-2019, 05:58 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
Yep im paying it but not on stuff i dont really need. I happily closed my wallet for overpriced luxury products and ill just point my money somewhere where it can make a proffit or ill just leave it sitting in the bank till markets uncrazy themselves.
2021 can’t come too soon.

---------- Post added Aug 6th, 2019 at 07:05 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
When everyone does that, companies stop getting money for their products and large sectors crash, sending workers into unemployment, which lowers the money they can spend in other market sectors, which causes the economy to contract. The end result is that everyone is poorer except for the super rich guys who somehow get richer.

The alternative is to go on an endless spiral of purchases because capitalism and consumerism are great ideas.

More on topic, if consumers start thinking that photography is a luxury hobby (like golf, sports cars, or playing Warhammer 40k [hah]) then it *will* end up as one. The shrinkage of the entry- and mid-level ranges will send the message of "only high-end cameras are sold profitably".
The shrinkage of the entry and mid level camera markets is, in part, being caused by the huge improvements in cell phone cameras.
That horse has left the barn, and no one is going to rope it back into it’s stall. This same effect is happening in other market areas, but cameras seem to be the most obvious victim of disruptive products coming on the market.
Like it or not, segments of the market are moving upscale to give them separation from segments that are elbowing in on their traditional turf.
People who are closing their wallets because they want the cheap and cheerful stuff that they have always been able to buy are going to be holding their breath until well after they turn blue.

Last edited by Wheatfield; 08-06-2019 at 06:06 AM.
08-06-2019, 06:38 AM - 1 Like   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
The shrinkage of the entry and mid level camera markets is, in part, being caused by the huge improvements in cell phone cameras.
That horse has left the barn, and no one is going to rope it back into itís stall. This same effect is happening in other market areas, but cameras seem to be the most obvious victim of disruptive products coming on the market.
Like it or not, segments of the market are moving upscale to give them separation from segments that are elbowing in on their traditional turf.
People who are closing their wallets because they want the cheap and cheerful stuff that they have always been able to buy are going to be holding their breath until well after they turn blue.
All the way up to purple, for sure. It might be collateral damage, but it is still damage. I am still a terrible customer however, I haven't given a single cent to Ricoh. And considering how a low-shutter-count camera is easily 30-40% cheaper second-hand I don't think I will in the near future (PhD salary only goes so far...). I am considering a K-1 or KP for graduation self-gift next year (GF says go full frame and taunts me with her 70-200...).
08-06-2019, 08:00 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
(GF says go full frame and taunts me with her 70-200...).
08-06-2019, 01:30 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
2021 can’t come too soon.
I'm not in a hurry
08-06-2019, 02:06 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
I'm not in a hurry
People who actually know about this stuff are very concerned at the moment.
You would be too if you were paying attention.

I have to bow out of this thread now, but do please carry on.
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