[kaseki]

Comparing the Image Quality of Film and Digital

Near the end they have 35mm film. 12-24 megapixels estimated for color slide film. Not the only source I've read for that. And when your Foveon is closer to 40mp of bayer data....Film would fall short. Except for MF and large format...which are still kings of resolving power.

Tch. Tch. Mixing apples and oranges. The film is 12-24 Mp tricolor. The Foveon is 15 tricolor with probably worse color separation. This makes them roughly equivalent (ignoring the different MTF shapes). Bayer equivalence is not relevant.

The 645Z is 25/12.5/12.5 of actual data. The effective 645Z resolution will depend on how well the interpolation algorithm guesses what is missing in each color and the nature of the color information. Certainly there are 51 Mp of data, all of which provide some B&W clues. But a berry bush image where the red berries are pixel sized might be poorly represented at the 51 Mp level. In my view it is not valid to claim a Bayer equivalent for the Foveon without specifying the nature of the image that a conceptual higher pixel count Bayer sensor was reading. Further, the conceptual higher resolution sensor is reading offset color data -- not the same thing as stacked color data.

I wonder which would appear sharper to the eye (and brain). (a) a 15 Mp tricolor image projected by a tricolor laser scanner onto a screen such that there were 15 M spots of additive color, or (b) a 25/12.5/12.5 Mp image (without Bayer interpolation) projected by the same laser scanner such that the projected 50M single-color spots had the same relative locations as the camera sensor pixel layout.

[Leumas]

No. They were stating that film was 12-24mp of Bayer type resolving..... Not tri-color. So that house of cards comes down

---------- Post added 11-12-19 at 03:57 AM ----------

I don't understand why people keep overestimating the resolving power of 35 film. It was never designed to be high resolving it was designed to be compact, anybody that wanted high detail always went to medium or large format.
35 film in no way comes close to any modern digital camera for detail, but that's not why most of us shoot film anyway

[Rondec]

So Foveon is basically useless above iso 200. Many of the situations where you could use pixel shift are the same places where Foveon would shine and pixel shift gives the same resolving ability without interpolation.

Maybe the new full frame Foveon will be better, but it feels as though to this point Sigma cameras are pretty limited in their abilities, particularly limited in shooting above base iso.

[thazooo]

So Foveon is basically useless above iso 200. Many of the situations where you could use pixel shift are the same places where Foveon would shine and pixel shift gives the same resolving ability without interpolation.

Maybe the new full frame Foveon will be better, but it feels as though to this point Sigma cameras are pretty limited in their abilities, particularly limited in shooting above base iso.

Not really. As you raise the ISO the detail and color start to fall off. ISO 800 is still usable, 1600 isn't by my opinion.
The newest chip is configured differently than the others. Quattro chip has top layer for detail and blue, and bottom 2 layers for red and green. The idea was to eliminate some noise. Did it work ? IDK all I've shot is Quattro. I can say that there are some lively discussions on Merril vs Quattro. Here's a link to a review with sample images of the different ISO if anyone is interested. Sigma SD Quattro Review – Review By Richard

[DeadJohn]

Foveon has been "the future" for over a decade. That future will never arrive, IMO. It offers some benefits but also some weaknesses.

[BigMackCam]

As you raise the ISO the detail and color start to fall off. ISO 800 is still usable, 1600 isn't by my opinion.
...
Here's a link to a review with sample images of the different ISO if anyone is interested.

Thanks for posting that review link.

I guess higher ISO performance is very much subjective. Considering the examples in the review (enlarged below), base ISO - the first crop - looks fine. But even at ISO 200 (the second crop) I see green and magenta colour noise artefacts on the branches and the grey slats of that wooden cabin. At ISO 400 (the third and final crop) colour noise is more noticeable, but far more worrying is the washed out saturation in the greens. Based on what I'm looking at here, I wouldn't want to routinely shoot above ISO 200...

[Leumas]

So Foveon is basically useless above iso 200. Many of the situations where you could use pixel shift are the same places where Foveon would shine and pixel shift gives the same resolving ability without interpolation.

Maybe the new full frame Foveon will be better, but it feels as though to this point Sigma cameras are pretty limited in their abilities, particularly limited in shooting above base iso.

Very limited ISO for sure. It's a slower process using one of those cameras, much like film. Only reason I haven't picked one up is it's more limited uses....still want one. Especially considering you can get all that resolving power in a size that fits in your pocket (DP1 Merrill)

[thazooo]

Thanks for posting that review link.

I guess higher ISO performance is very much subjective. Considering the examples in the review (enlarged below), base ISO - the first crop - looks fine. But even at ISO 200 (the second crop) I see green and magenta colour noise artefacts on the branches and the grey slats of that wooden cabin. At ISO 400 (the third and final crop) colour noise is more noticeable, but far more worrying is the washed out saturation in the greens. Based on what I'm looking at here, I wouldn't want to routinely shoot above ISO 200...

There's no doubt the the higher the ISO the quicker it falls apart. The camera definitely likes being shot in sun light. I think someone in this discussion mentioned the stronger the lite the better the sensor absorbs it. I'd use 400 and 800 probably on night scene only.

[normhead]

I bought a DP2, I sold a DP2.
The disadvantages far outweigh the advantages. The results were spectacular for the file size, but the fact i was shooting less MP made it moot. With the purchase of my K-1 with pixel shift, any need I might have had for a my DP2 vanished. You can make up for the increased clarity of a DP2 with the increased oversample of a K-1 or K-3. And when you can use pixels shift, the K-P or K-1 will blow it away.

As general rule I just don't sell cameras. I decided it was better to sell the DP2 while I could still get money for it. It was never going to be used in the field again.

[Leumas]

I bought a DP2, I sold a DP2.
The disadvantages far outweigh the advantages. The results were spectacular for the file size, but the fact i was shooting less MP made it moot. With the purchase of my K-1 with pixel shift, any need I might have had for a my DP2 vanished. You can make up for the increased clarity of a DP2 with the increased oversample of a K-1 or K-3. And when you can use pixels shift, the K-P or K-1 will blow it away.

As general rule I just don't sell cameras. I decided it was better to sell the DP2 while I could still get money for it. It was never going to be used in the field again.

There's a huge difference from a DP2 to a DP2 Merrill. Which was yours?

[normhead]

DP 2 the Merril will be 3x the MP would certainly improve things, although I'm guessing it doesn't do much for the Dynamic range or high ISO performance. Another draw back for me was the whole fixed lens thing. You have to have your DSLR along in case the lens doesn't fit the scene.

[Leumas]

DP 2 the Merril will be 3x the MP would certainly improve things, although I'm guessing it doesn't do much for the Dynamic range or high ISO performance. Another draw back for me was the whole fixed lens thing. You have to have your DSLR along in case the lens doesn't fit the scene.

Yeah I agree, not very flexible for a photo excursion. But I think of it as more one of those always with you camera's since it's so compact. The times you didn't bring your SLR gear and wish you had something more legit than a cellphone. I think the Merrill would fit that bill nicely.

[normhead]

Started out pretty enthusiastic. I found it didn't take long before the drawbacks started to mean it got left home a lot. But hey, I have to expect, there are people fro whom it suits their style. Just not mine.