[RGlasel]

whose portfolio would include them as an investment?

The timing of this financial distancing by Sony is not a coincidence. The investing landscape is going to be radically altered for the next 10-12 months. It's going to be like a giant garage sale, with lots of bargain hunters, families clearing out their basements and at the end of the weekend, lots of unsold merchandise. But Sony Corporation is no longer going to be taking care of Sony TV's, stereos or cameras. That message was written on the kitchen corkboard five years ago, it is just that most people ignored it.

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Last edited by RGlasel; 03-28-2020 at 08:26 AM.

[lesmore49]

It is potentially confusing for customers. Do you buy a A7, A7 II, A7 III, A7r III, A7r IV, A9, A9 II, or A7s II, all of which are for sale new on B and H (maybe there are more full frame Sony's available, but that was a quick search).

Quite true. I could never keep the Sony line straight. I encountered a similar difficulty sometimes, over the years with the Canon line. For example , awhile ago I was considering getting into Canon when looking at my entry into digital full frame DSLR.

I recall doing research of the following 5D cameras. At the time, there were a few new old stock, 5D3's available. Then there were the newer 5D cameras ...the 5D Mark IV, 5DS and 5DS R.

Then the 6D.

Of course this was before the additional models...the Canon Mirrorless full frames were introduced and nowadays if you want a new Canon FF...you do have some choice and a lot of research with such a large repertoire of Canon FF bodies.

For me, it was a little like the old Abbot and Costello comedy routine...Who's on first base.

Back in the '70's, as far as top of the line, Canon 35mm SLR camera bodies, it was simpler to figure out. Canon had the Canon F-1 (which I have), then that was replaced by the Canon F-1 New (think it was called), which was an evolutionary upgrade.

So it can get confusing for an average enthusiast like me. I like the Pentax line...full frame the K-1, medium format the 645Z.

[monochrome]

It’s something like choosing a new car. They all do the same thing, but the trim levels often become a dizzying feature set choice. (I don’t want to buy NAV just to get heated seats dammit). And that’s after you choose a Make and model . . . . . . And dealer.


Forget trying to do a rational comparison.

[lesmore49]

It’s something like choosing a new car. They all do the same thing, but the trim levels often become a dizzying feature set choice. (I don’t want to buy NAV just to get heated seats dammit). And that’s after you choose a Make and model . . . . . . And dealer.


Forget trying to do a rational comparison.

Back in the '60's you could order specific options as stand alones. They didn't have to be part of a package. You could order a '66 Chevy Nova 2 door hardtop...as a Super Sport package (SS) and could choose the F 41 handling package or not, choose the engine from a wimpy inline six cylinder or the 283 V8 2 barrel...or 283 with a 4 barrel carburetor....or a 350 HP L79 327 cube V8...or a 275 HP / 327. You could order a 3 speed manual, 4 speed manual or automatic transmission. You could order front bucket seats or a front bench seat.

You could order one specific option and that is why back then...you might end up with a 1 of 237 Ford station wagon with a 4 speed manual, 428 cubic inch V8 and bucket seats, rather than the much more common front bench seat, automatic and 390 cube 2 barrel V8.. You had a better chance of getting exactly what you wanted.

We just bought a 2020 Chevy Traverse LT. We have AWD, a 3.6 DOHC V6, a 9 speed transmission....but there are no powertrain options. Each Traverse has this engine and this transmission. AWD is an option over FWD, but other than that nowadays we are offered only a package of certain options, very few if any single options. This Traverse SUV is much like other makes/models of modern cars.

We probably have a 1 of 72,000 Chevy Traverse with the LT package. As it happens we like it....but....

You choose 'packages' which are certain options bundled together. Easier for manufacturers to offer only certain packages of options than a whole host of individual, stand alone options. Easier on the order process, less chance to screw things up having only a couple of packages for the salesman to check off, then a host of separate individual options.

Also easier and faster on the assembly line to only have to deal with 'packages' rather than a host of individual options.

I've done both. I like the old way better. That way I can get exactly what I wanted, not having to take some options I didn't want in order to get the options I did want.

[mee]

Back in the '60's you could order specific options as stand alones. They didn't have to be part of a package. You could order a '66 Chevy Nova 2 door hardtop...as a Super Sport package (SS) and could choose the F 41 handling package or not, choose the engine from a wimpy inline six cylinder or the 283 V8 2 barrel...or 283 with a 4 barrel carburetor....or a 350 HP L79 327 cube V8...or a 275 HP / 327. You could order a 3 speed manual, 4 speed manual or automatic transmission. You could order front bucket seats or a front bench seat.

You could order one specific option and that is why back then...you might end up with a 1 of 237 Ford station wagon with a 4 speed manual, 428 cubic inch V8 and bucket seats, rather than the much more common front bench seat, automatic and 390 cube 2 barrel V8.. You had a better chance of getting exactly what you wanted.

We just bought a 2020 Chevy Traverse LT. We have AWD, a 3.6 DOHC V6, a 9 speed transmission....but there are no powertrain options. Each Traverse has this engine and this transmission. AWD is an option over FWD, but other than that nowadays we are offered only a package of certain options, very few if any single options. This Traverse SUV is much like other makes/models of modern cars.

We probably have a 1 of 72,000 Chevy Traverse with the LT package. As it happens we like it....but....

You choose 'packages' which are certain options bundled together. Easier for manufacturers to offer only certain packages of options than a whole host of individual, stand alone options. Easier on the order process, less chance to screw things up having only a couple of packages for the salesman to check off, then a host of separate individual options.

Also easier and faster on the assembly line to only have to deal with 'packages' rather than a host of individual options.

I've done both. I like the old way better. That way I can get exactly what I wanted, not having to take some options I didn't want in order to get the options I did want.

I was thinking about this last week when looking at cars online. A lot of the ones I looked at didn't have options. Instead one could simply pick model, a generic trim level A B or C, and then decided if you wanted mudflaps or floormats. About it.

Society has long been refining itself. Most everything today gets refined. And in refinement there are less choices.


At least with cars it makes it easier to compare pricing. Your 2020 Traverse LT is the same on Lot 1 as Lot 2. Not much room for the dealership to hem and haw at the pricing because this one has the upgraded butt warmers and a 4 speed in primo blue and the one on the other lot doesn't have butt warmers but does have a 5 speed in mondo red.

Plus it's probably easier to repair knowing an LT is an LT when it comes in to the shop.

[lesmore49]

I was thinking about this last week when looking at cars online. A lot of the ones I looked at didn't have options. Instead one could simply pick model, a generic trim level A B or C, and then decided if you wanted mudflaps or floormats. About it.

Society has long been refining itself. Most everything today gets refined. And in refinement there are less choices.


At least with cars it makes it easier to compare pricing. Your 2020 Traverse LT is the same on Lot 1 as Lot 2. Not much room for the dealership to hem and haw at the pricing because this one has the upgraded butt warmers and a 4 speed in primo blue and the one on the other lot doesn't have butt warmers but does have a 5 speed in mondo red.

Plus it's probably easier to repair knowing an LT is an LT when it comes in to the shop.

Best way of getting the best price on a new vehicle , in my experience is factory ordering...through a dealer.

For a couple cars we used this process and ordered from the factory, through dealers. We knew exactly what we wanted, even to the option RPO #...or regular production option #....of the particular options/option package we wanted. Therefore the sales associate didn't have to spend a couple of hours talking about different products, showing us vehicles for test rides, etc. All they had to do was give us their best price for this specific vehicle, as of yet, unordered and unbuilt.

I sent the make/mode,. exact options on the same vehicle and to 4 GM dealers and asked each one to give us their absolute best price on that model, make, options. The successful dealer would then be asked to order the car from the factory. I explained the process to each dealer and indicated I would make the choice based on best price, among the 4 dealers.

Sort of like tendering.

Only three dealers participated but I did get an excellent price. Last one we factory ordered, was back in '97 and the prices ranged from $ 33, 500, $ 27,000 to the best price of $ 23,000. All for the exact same vehicle. Significant difference in price.

Did we hose the dealer ? Nope, I don't think the consumer ever hoses the dealer. They know their costs, their true invoice, etc. and we don't. Advantage dealer.

The best the consumer can hope for is a good deal. Other factors we spoke to the dealers about was that the vehicle we factory ordered, would not be on their lot for any length of time...so no additional interest costs, etc, We would take it as soon as it was off the truck and had the mandatory dealer preparation, etc.

It would be fast and efficient for them. In and out quickly.

[RGlasel]

Best way of getting the best price on a new vehicle , in my experience is factory ordering...through a dealer.

You are 95% correct; if you don't mind buying a vehicle that has been sitting on the lot for more than 12 months because the person tasked with ordering vehicles screwed up and ordered a three legged dog by mistake, you can buy a new vehicle for much less than used.

Funny you should mention tendering, typically requests like yours are sent to the fleet manager, who is more than happy to make a 10% margin on your order, compared to the 15% the salespeople on the floor are expected to make. Plus the dealership gets the usual dating terms while getting paid immediately by the finance company.

In the mid eighties, North American car companies were forced to adopt Japanese management techniques. That's when option packages became the norm, to allow for just in time delivery of components and minimal parts inventory. It also made for more efficient manufacturing and reduced labour costs on the factory floor.

It's been 31 years since I last worked in a car dealership; when my daughter bought a new car a few years ago, I discovered that nothing had changed. I have some mechanical aptitude, if my employer hasn't provided me with a new vehicle to drive for work, I've driven old clunkers.

[lesmore49]

You are 95% correct; if you don't mind buying a vehicle that has been sitting on the lot for more than 12 months because the person tasked with ordering vehicles screwed up and ordered a three legged dog by mistake, you can buy a new vehicle for much less than used.

Funny you should mention tendering, typically requests like yours are sent to the fleet manager, who is more than happy to make a 10% margin on your order, compared to the 15% the salespeople on the floor are expected to make. Plus the dealership gets the usual dating terms while getting paid immediately by the finance company.

In the mid eighties, North American car companies were forced to adopt Japanese management techniques. That's when option packages became the norm, to allow for just in time delivery of components and minimal parts inventory. It also made for more efficient manufacturing and reduced labour costs on the factory floor.

It's been 31 years since I last worked in a car dealership; when my daughter bought a new car a few years ago, I discovered that nothing had changed. I have some mechanical aptitude, if my employer hasn't provided me with a new vehicle to drive for work, I've driven old clunkers.

I forgot the three legged dogs (invariably going by the name 'Lucky') in the back lot of the dealer. I think I may have bought one of those 'specials' early in my car ownership.

In the early '70's I got a fairly good deal on a new '73 Toyota Corolla and as I found out later, there was a reason for it.

Car & Driver at the time had an article on what they suggested was one of the best econo cars for the SCCA racing class for small, 4 cylinder sedans. I wasn't going to be racing in SCCA events...I just wanted a cheap car with some extra punch and half decent MPGs. So I followed their advice.

I bought a plain Jane, white '73 Toyota Corolla in stripper form and this very basic, essentially shell of a car was their (C&D) choice with the following equipment only....rubber floor covering, no carpeting, little in the way of sound deadening, radio delete . C&D recommended two options.... the 'large' engine...the 1600cc OHV hemi as opposed to the standard 1200cc OHV job, and front disc brake option, which also came with 13 inch wheels/tires as opposed to 12 inch wheels/tires drum brakes on the regular Corolla.

I looked all over the 'Peg back then for such a beast and one dealer had one...the only one in the city. I bought it, had the seat rails moved back a couple of inches* so I could fit in (6' 3.5 " then) and although it was noisy on the highway it had quite a good power to weight ratio...so much so that I could consistently take a buddy who had a brand new Celica. He was upset that the cheapest model in the Toyota line could smoke his Celica. He wasn't a car guy and didn't realize the power to weight ratio was better with my Corolla 1600...also I had some experience drag racing...my launches and shifting (4 speed) were a bit better than his.

Anyways, after I bought it, although I liked the get up and go it had for a small econo car...I did realize why it was the only one of it's kind in Winterpeg...also known as wholesale city. Customers may have wanted an economy car...but not this one...it was too stripped for most tastes.

* This was '73 and the last time any dealer would move back the seat rails a few inches for me....as liability became an issue. After that for additional legroom in a small car, I had to make do with a pillow.

[Pål Jensen]

Back in the '60's you could order specific options as stand alones. .

You can do that with European cars. At least in Europe

[lesmore49]

You can do that with European cars. At least in Europe

I had a few European vehicles over the years....four motorcycles, four cars. All back in the 1960's. They were pretty basic vehicles....VW Beetles, Volvo PV 544s with twin SU carb B18 engine.

With the V-dubs..my options were paint colour, deluxe or basic model, although the '69 could be ordered with an additional option...a semi automatic transmission. The Volvo, a '62...aside from paint, I think you could order a single carb 1.8 liter and that was about it.

Now things have changed in the past 50 years. My son has a BMW G/S motorcycle, bought new in Canada and he did have some options to choose...some would have to be ordered from the Canadian distributor...like frame colour etc...others like crash bars could be dealer ordered/installed. Yup, as you say you can order different options on a BMW motorcycle, the European vehicle that I have experience with and I'm sure this is the case with other Euro vehicles.

[monochrome]

You can do that with European cars. At least in Europe

You can order a nearly custom build on a Mini - at least you could have - and expect(ed) delivery in 6 weeks. Of course Porsche, and BMW a bit less custom, and Audi just colors and packages. Japanese imports you get what the dealer has.

[beholder3]

I feel there are very different ways to buy a car around the world.

Assuming I want to buy a new car from say Mercedes here, the dealer just takes my configuration of 50-80 options and sends it to the maker. Then I have to wait for 2-6 months until that car is produced and shipped to my dealer where I receive it.

The options are expensive though. Even cupholders are charged extra.

Dealers only hold a minimum of new cars for demo reasons on stock and they have to sell them with quite a discount.

With French and Japanese cars they seem only to have a handful of packages which bundle a dozen options each, so there config is rather limited, but also not as expensive.

[Pål Jensen]

You can order a nearly custom build on a Mini - at least you could have - and expect(ed) delivery in 6 weeks. Of course Porsche, and BMW a bit less custom, and Audi just colors and packages. Japanese imports you get what the dealer has.

In Europe you can order an Audi as you like it. Very few forced options. In addition they have a custom department where you can order the car in any color you like, with any interior color you like, at a very high price. If you want the gear nob in real gold, they will do that too
You can configure your car at Audi Deutschland

[Lord Lucan]

Back in the '70's, ..... it was simpler to figure out. Canon had the Canon F-1 (which I have), then that was replaced by the Canon F-1 New (think it was called)

Simple to figure out? Let's see, Canon started with the F-1. That was replaced by the F-1n. Then that in turn was replaced by the F-1 - but that was not the same F-1 as the first F-1, so people called it the "New F-1". You need to know a bit about them to tell them apart because they all had "F-1" on the front. I believe that some Canon fans call them the "F-1", "F-1n" and "F-1N" (note that capital) to distinguish between them.

Reminds me of the Monty Python Bruce sketch - everyone was called "Bruce" to save confusion

[normhead]

You are 95% correct; if you don't mind buying a vehicle that has been sitting on the lot for more than 12 months because the person tasked with ordering vehicles screwed up and ordered a three legged dog by mistake, you can buy a new vehicle for much less than used.

My last two vehicles have been Toyota Red Tag offerings. As a result I got a V6 on my RAV instead of the standard 4 and a couple other options for a couple grand less than the sticker price on the base model. Where I live the V6 is much better option with our long steep hills. I never would have paid for ti, but it's joy to have. MY first Rav I was waiting for my first check/oil change at the dealership, when I met a guy with the same option packages as me. He'd bought his 2 weeks earlier and paid $5000 more for his. It's not all bad with the 3 legged dogs. It's a bit of a misnomer, if they have a package you want. If they do, it's getting what you want for quite a bit cheaper than any other way to get it, other than stealing it, and in my case, I got something I actually needed that I wouldn't have paid for.