[UlrichSchiegg]

Says who? There have been market studies and sales estimates well before the internet era and its 'magic', you know.

Oh yeah, I know these market studies. I see them as a development engineers since years. Our product is easier to count, you know, power stations. But the numbers published are still educated guesses, often not close to reality."

The purpose of market studies, is to direct future investments. This pupose they mostly serve well. It is the whole market expectation, where the interest is, not the number details.

[jswilson64]

So is this a hypothetical?? Or did it actually happen? Having all four strut mounts fail at the same time isn't very likely to happen and for only one car with no recall from Kia seems a bit strange. Failures like that would be showing up on damn near all Kia Fortes in that year model. It would seem in a situation like that Kia would and should make repairs.

This is a hypothetical.

Should we be ok with an entry-level car where some percentage of units suffer a catastrophic failure of a critical component after warranty expires, manufacturer knows the defect exits, won't fix it, and the fix costs approximately 25% of original MSRP?

[Photos-by-Chas]

I can’t pass up the discussion comparing cars and cameras. I buy Pentax because they are more reasonably priced and generally have given me great service.

Likewise I have bought more reasonably priced cars and had good luck with them needing only minor or lesser expensive repairs. As an example, in 1988 I bought a brand new Yugo for about $5300. That car went for around 6000 miles, required maybe $1500 to $2500 in repairs during its lifetime and was relegated to the scrap heap in 1996.

Just saying...

[stevebrot]

Let's say you buy an "entry level" car at a local dealership - around here that could be a Kia Forte, $16,000.00 sticker. 5 year/60,000 mile warranty.

When the odometer clicks over to 61,000 miles, something breaks. Something critical to the operation of the vehicle like say all four strut mounts fail and the car is undriveable. Kia knew the strut mounts were more prone to failure than, the engine or transmission, but it's out of warranty now so too bad for you. They won't fix it. You can't even pay Kia to fix it. You can take it to your mechanic for repairs if you want, but it's going to cost you about $4,000.00.

I guess because it's an entry-level cheaper car, I guess that's ok.

Wow! I am glad I don't live in your region! My local Kia dealership would happily accept an out of warranty Kia for service (as will Pentax authorized service). That said, I suspect that the regional office for Kia would likely honor the warranty at 61K miles (as has Ricoh/Pentax with these cameras, some up to six months out). $4000 to replace all the struts and strut mounts would not be out of line given the extent of the repair (Precision currently charges a nominal amount to replace the aperture control block.)

All that aside, the matter of entry level vs. more expensive camera and expectations of short service life on the former probably involves multiple logical fallacies. I don't know that anyone on this site or elsewhere is justified in saying that purchase of a K-50 in 2015 should not have resulted in a minimum of five years normal usage (e.g. barring abuse and not exceeding the rated shutter cycles), the normal period for full depreciation for business tax purposes.

To tell the owners of those failed mid-level bodies to suck it up because their cameras were moderately priced is sort of mean spirited.

That said, to expect Ricoh to meet owner's expectations of remedy (some feel a new KP might be in order) is unrealistic, sort of like expecting full refund on a half-eaten burrito several months later because it tasted bad at the time.

I guess that is why we have courts of equity (where civil suits go) and why it is unusual in product defect matters to see anything close to large awards unless the defect resulted in death or permanent personal disability. Ricoh may indeed be able to show that it acted in good faith once the problem became apparent. The plaintiffs might also be able to demonstrate significant injury as well as cause for punitive damages. We will see.

FWIW...I felt like weeping as I and many others on this site fielded the help requests in 2013 from K-30 owners whose out-of-warranty cameras were failing. Those feelings persisted when the problem extended to K-50 owners and came home when my girlfriend's K-50 also failed*. It was with some relief that we encountered far less reports for K-500, K-S1, and K-S2 cameras and when they slowed to a trickle (a handful a year) for the K-70.


Steve

* Repaired by Ricoh/Pentax two months out of warranty with replacement of aperture control block and mirror control block (both systems were involved). The fix worked and has held and her camera is still operational as of a few weeks ago.

---

Last edited by stevebrot; 11-20-2020 at 02:57 PM.

[mlt]

Definitely will be interesting to see if this suit gets any traction and what Ricoh’s response is, or will be. With current Covid restrictions, getting anything in the way of a class action off the ground and running may be interesting.

[reh321]

Wow! I am glad I don't live in your region! My local Kia dealership would happily accept an out of warranty Kia for service (as will Pentax authorized service). That said, I suspect that the regional office for Kia would likely honor the warranty at 61K miles (as has Ricoh/Pentax with these cameras, some up to six months out). $4000 to replace all the struts and strut mounts would not be out of line given the extent of the repair (Precision currently charges a nominal amount to replace the aperture control block.)

All that aside, the matter of entry level vs. more expensive camera and expectations of short service life on the former probably involves multiple logical fallacies. I don't know that anyone on this site or elsewhere is justified in saying that purchase of a K-50 in 2015 should not have resulted in a minimum of five years normal usage (e.g. barring abuse and not exceeding the rated shutter cycles), the normal period for full depreciation for business tax purposes.

To tell the owners of those failed mid-level bodies to suck it up because their cameras were moderately priced is sort of mean spirited.

I was totally unaware of the Dark Image Syndrome when I purchased a K-30 in 2015. I had gone through two Canon Rebels since 2007, and was looking for something more dependable. Now, my expectations may not have been realistic - my last two film cameras had lasted a total of just over 24 years; on the other hand, I am still using the Q-7 I purchased just about 7 years ago {and cost me about the same amount that the K-30 had}. Anyway, I did learn about the Dark Image Syndrome over the next year, and when my camera started having that problem after 2 years, I was ready with an FA 28-105mm lens, which still provides AF, while allowing me to control the aperture through an aperture ring. I could still be using that as my primary camera {I do still use it occasionally} if I hadn’t picked up a KP on Black Friday 2018. I do still think I should have gotten 5 years of complete service from the K-30, though; as already mentioned, I do not trust the solenoid at this point, and I believe Pentax should combine their K-70 and KP lines to get a reliable entry-level camera, but at age 72, I may be permanently out of the market, so I guess my opinion may not matter any more to them.

[stevebrot]

Definitely will be interesting to see if this suit gets any traction and what Ricoh’s response is, or will be. With current Covid restrictions, getting anything in the way of a class action off the ground and running may be interesting.

The suit is definitely going forward, judges have been as assigned and both parties have been filing motions, the most recent activity being about 2 weeks ago. I don't believe the case has gotten to discover yet.


Steve

[DWS1]

I'm sure this will be settled long before it ever sees a courtroom. The lawyers will get a bunch of Ricoh's money, Ricoh will not admit any wrongdoing and raise it's prices to recover the costs, and the ones that actually suffered damages will get a $25 gift card good at the Ricoh store.

[totsmuyco]

I was totally unaware of the Dark Image Syndrome when I purchased a K-30 in 2015. I had gone through two Canon Rebels since 2007, and was looking for something more dependable. Now, my expectations may not have been realistic - my last two film cameras had lasted a total of just over 24 years; on the other hand, I am still using the Q-7 I purchased just about 7 years ago {and cost me about the same amount that the K-30 had}. Anyway, I did learn about the Dark Image Syndrome over the next year, and when my camera started having that problem after 2 years, I was ready with an FA 28-105mm lens, which still provides AF, while allowing me to control the aperture through an aperture ring. I could still be using that as my primary camera {I do still use it occasionally} if I hadn’t picked up a KP on Black Friday 2018. I do still think I should have gotten 5 years of complete service from the K-30, though; as already mentioned, I do not trust the solenoid at this point, and I believe Pentax should combine their K-70 and KP lines to get a reliable entry-level camera, but at age 72, I may be permanently out of the market, so I guess my opinion may not matter any more to them.

I agree with you not trusting the solenoid system and that Pentax should avoid using it in the future. Pentax should make their entry level cameras more reliable and, as far as I'm concerned that's the only fault I can find in those cameras. I aslo agree that your KP is a fine camera but, I don't agree that you're out of the market. After all when you retire, you should enjoy the things that you love to do with his beloved gears. And for us it's photography. So we should do our best to be in the market until we die. A Jedi Pentaxian is always a Jedi Pentaxian.

[stevebrot]

I agree with you not trusting the solenoid system and that Pentax should avoid using it in the future.

Sort of like how they should have avoided it in every program exposure camera from the Super Program in 1983 to the K-r (last model prior to the K-30), eh? FWIW, the two-motor system used in the K-7, K-5, K-3, KP, and K-1 series cameras has not been without its problems either, though it appears that Pentax got the bugs worked out for the KP and K-1...or maybe not.


Steve

[reh321]

Sort of like how they should have avoided it in every program exposure camera from the Super Program in 1983 to the K-r (last model prior to the K-30), eh? FWIW, the two-motor system used in the K-7, K-5, K-3, KP, and K-1 series cameras has not been without its problems either, though it appears that Pentax got the bugs worked out for the KP and K-1...or maybe not.

Steve

The solenoid worked fine until the K-30; my "Super Program" {purchased in 1983} worked fine the last time I used it.
The problem apparently occurred when production of the solenoid moved to China and the materials used changed.
Even then, Pentax had no reason to question this proven part until K-30 bodies started failing several years later - that is when they apparently changed the design, which then took several years to "age".
So, I believe Pentax has done the best they could, as they became aware of facts, but now the facts say the new design has issues too, and I would suggest they have spent enough resources on the solenoid.

[Photos-by-Chas]

I can’t pass up the discussion comparing cars and cameras. I buy Pentax because they are more reasonably priced and generally have given me great service.

Likewise I have bought more reasonably priced cars and had good luck with them needing only minor or lesser expensive repairs. As an example, in 1988 I bought a brand new Yugo for about $5300. That car went for around 6000 miles, required maybe $1500 to $2500 in repairs during its lifetime and was relegated to the scrap heap in 1996.

Just saying...

I must make a correction of a typographical error. My Yugo lived for 60,000 miles. not the 6,000 i originally typed. I never took a typing class, my keyboarding is all self taught, and not taught well. lol

[c.a.m]

My Yugo lived for 60,000 miles. not the 6,000 i originally typed.

I kinda wondered about that.

On a business trip to the U.S. in the 80's, I was given a Yugo at the rental place. Never heard of it, but I guess it's ok, I thought. It's a European model, they said. Being comfortable with a manual gearbox, I was able to just coax the clutch and get rolling. As I was driving out of the rental parking lot, I was presented with a symphony of squealing, grinding and scraping from the engine, the rear end, and a wheel. Took it back and got something driveable.

So, I wasn't really surprised when you said "6,000".

(No offense to any happy Yugo drivers. I understand they've improved over the years).

- Craig

[Photos-by-Chas]

I kinda wondered about that.

On a business trip to the U.S. in the 80's, I was given a Yugo at the rental place. Never heard of it, but I guess it's ok, I thought. It's a European model, they said. Being comfortable with a manual gearbox, I was able to just coax the clutch and get rolling. As I was driving out of the rental parking lot, I was presented with a symphony of squealing, grinding and scraping from the engine, the rear end, and a wheel. Took it back and got something driveable.

So, I wasn't really surprised when you said "6,000".

(No offense to any happy Yugo drivers. I understand they've improved over the years

- Craig

Sorry to inform you Craig but they went out of business long before mine went to the scrap heap. They were imported from the city if Zastava, Yugoslavia. I have seen limited YouTube or other videos of the cars used as dragsters, race cars and there is even a book about "The Worst Car Ever Made," not sure if that is even available now. I loved mine, took a lot of ribbing and enjoyed the gas mileage of over 40 mpg. The biggest joke was, "How do you double the value of a Yugo?" The answer, "Fill its gas tank."

[Larrymc]

I must make a correction of a typographical error. My Yugo lived for 60,000 miles. not the 6,000 i originally typed. I never took a typing class, my keyboarding is all self taught, and not taught well. lol

I was about to say.....Typical Yugo....., but I knew what you meant. 60,000 miles is the sort of longevity typical of 60s through 80s automobiles.