[Rondec]

Depends how much you're shooting. What if your K30 failed after 18 months, 20 000 clicks, just after the warranty period expired?

---------- Post added 16-06-22 at 18:33 ----------


Of course, it's hard to make low cost cameras more durable and even harder to cope with the cost of repairs. What I'd like to point at here is the "how" Ricoh deal with customer issues. It would be better if Ricoh had a "problem solving" attitude towards the aperture block failure as opposed to denying the issue and letting customers open class actions suits. Just having "class action suit Pentax" article published in the specialized photography channels (internet), is not helping Pentax brand image. Imagine you are in the market for a camera and one of Pentax models is within your short list, then you look-up "Pentax issues" on the internet and you find a bunch of articles about aperture block failures, will you still consider buying a Pentax camera? Maybe not.

I don't know that anyone is doing searches for "Pentax issues" except for Sony users.

My daughter's K-S1 was afflicted by this a couple of years after we purchased it. Rather than deal with pentax I got it fixed at another location for 100 dollars and it is still working fine (it's about six years old now). I bought the camera for 200 dollars. I don't feel upset about the situation. I don't really think it was Pentax's fault and while they could have done better with it, overall, I have owned a bunch of cameras of theirs and not had issues with the other ones.

[DeadJohn]

...In any case, running to the courts was never in my thoughts. Possibly shorter lifetime is part of the deal if you spend less up-front.

Was initial purchase price a factor in the judge's decision? I think they said a manufacturer is free of responsibility after warranty ends (which is mostly consistent with how warranties are assumed to work in the USA). A $5 hundred K-50 and $5 thousand 645Z both come with a one year warranty.

[photogem]

I have never read on the forums in Italy of a single person who has had the solenoid problem on k70

Doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist! Of course it exists as much as it existed with quite some K-70's in other countries.
I know of a few in Germany and Switzerland but far from how it was with the K30/50/K-S1 and K-S2. I have repaired myself dozens.
It was from Dec. 2015 that it got better but only recently that Ricoh seemed to have solved it finally, see:
A LITTLE BIT OF HISTORY: Development of the solenoid in Pentax cameras - PentaxForums.com

Many cases complained here are not even 100% verified.

And you got this knowledge from were?

Maybe check how many people read the repair tutorials:
Tutorial/Repair Pentax K-70 with aperture-problem: Exchange solenoid - PentaxForums.com
Tutorial/Repair Pentax K-70 with aperture-problem: Exchange solenoid - PentaxForums.com

as well as:
How to detect aperture-block failure/stuck solenoid on Pentax K-70 - PentaxForums.com

And then compare the numbers of those who took on the repair.
Those unverified ones you mention are more or less quite useless numbers!

Yet they hurt the reputation of a fully functional and one of Pentax's most successful camera.

Who is "they"?

Those who had the problem and didn't get help?
I'm afraid Ricoh hurt it's own reputation in some countries by now taking their customers seriously.
And some official repairshops hurt the repuation by inventing nonsense faults such as "resistor-chips" which went wrong.

You see, in my article about the history of the solenoid I defend Ricoh, but those who after their 1 year warranty was over and .... more often those who haven't used their camera a lot (as you can find out, not using a Pentax with China solenoid is much more the problem, which isn't mentioned in the manual)... they feel let down and nobody has the right to "command" them to use their camera more often.
I came across almost unused Pentax bodies which had a stuck solenoid!

On the other hand, there are many on k50 and k30. and many have left their mark for it and I understand them.

That is a step

But I did not consider it a serious problem with respect to the cost of purchase and repair.

For you and quite a few others not, fine. But those who won't feel fit to do the repair, is is a serious problem.
The cost for repair in Germany was € 248 but now ... because some do the filing/edging job, charge only € 148.
But those go wrong at times again!

You see, a stick has always two ends!

[photogem]

Not everybody. I had the problem on a k30 that appeared after several years. I bought a k70 and then a k1. (I put a stylus adapter on the k30 (15 euro) and it still works today after almost ten years, 80,000 shots without any problems).

What the heck is a stylus adapter and what the heck does it do in a K30?

One can use the AA-Adapter and use Eneloops which does "at times"(!!!) help, but more often it won't!
Your case is different because very regular use helps.
But this is not how it "ought to be": An almost new K30 should work if not used for 2 years. Period!

[Rondec]

Was initial purchase price a factor in the judge's decision? I think they said a manufacturer is free of responsibility after warranty ends (which is mostly consistent with how warranties are assumed to work in the USA). A $5 hundred K-50 and $5 thousand 645Z both come with a one year warranty.

I think the judge basically said that the person who brought the lawsuit didn't have data for any of these things.

1. The actual failure rate of these cameras and of similar cameras from other manufacturers.

2. What the expected life span of the K-50 should be.

3. What language was expressed by the manufacturer that made him think the camera would last longer than the four years that his camera did.

If Ricoh said, "We know the camera is only warrantied for 1 year, but we fully expect it to last five years," I never read it anywhere and apparently he couldn't actually come up with an advertisement where they said any such thing.

Proving that product is defective from date of production when most of them are lasting over a year or two is difficult and you would need some solid numbers. Considering the damages would be minimal, I can't see how it would be worth it except to prove a point.

[reh321]

I have never read on the forums in Italy of a single person who has had the solenoid problem on k70 Many cases complained here are not even 100% verified. yet they hurt the reputation of a fully functional and one of Pentax's most successful camera. On the other hand, there are many on k50 and k30. and many have left their mark for it and I understand them.
but I did not consider it a serious problem with respect to the cost of purchase and repair. I do not think it is possible that an AF like that of the k3III is inserted on an entry level model, I would be happy otherwise, but I doubt it would be good for the sales of the K3III

I don’t understand this statement at all. Which “they” are you talking about? How do you measure the success of a camera series??

I am one who did personally experience the “Dark Image Syndrome”, and for awhile I regularly read the K-30/50 and K-70 sections of this forum. I don’t remember what countries people who had K-70 troubles came from. If a person did have exposure issues with the K-70, someone would suggest that the user do the needed diagnostic tests, and often the user him/her self would conclude the solenoid was at fault. I do not know what percentage of the K-70’s had solenoid issues, but it was definitely a long way from zero. I personally got a KP because of a personal desire to avoid solenoids used to control the aperture. When a person who solicit advice, some - including @Adam; - would recommend a K-70, while other of us would refer to the K-70 owners who had reported issues. In recent days, I have joined those who say that Pentax’s latest fix seems to actually work. If warning a person that some K-70 users have experienced exposure issues, then I will gladly admit “guilt”, but the record run up by the K-70 at one time was nothing to be bragged about. I remember one particular case of someone who had strange exposure issues; one commenter denied that this one could possibly traced to the solenoid, but when the user performed the ‘gold standard’ test of watching the aperture change, he reported that his had failed, and when he sent it in to his Pentax repairer, they replaced the solenoid-containing mechanism. If giving that advice is bad, then Pentax themselves were part of the problem.

[swanlefitte]

"Generally, hobbyists or casual photographers can expect their digital cameras to last approximately five years, while a professional photographer may get a longer run from a high-end model." How Many Years Does A Digital Camera Last | Expected Camera Lifespan.

This is general for 2021 and doesn't mention standard deviations that should be expected. A consumer survey in 2014 said consumers expected a digital camera to last 6.5 years. Consumers expectations are presumably higher than industry standards and 2014 standards have probably become less since 2021. Then there is digital rot and the 4 year old camera is worth practically nothing. Digital Rot: The Sad Truth about Digital Cameras and Depreciation | PetaPixel

As a tax write off for a bussiness Tax Guide For Photographers | Fstoppers.

[Not a Number]

I've mentioned this many times before in the numerous and repetitive and redundant discussions on this topic: A poster on a German Pentax forum a Pentax (Hoya/Ricoh) rep told him that the K-30/50 was designed to last only one or two years.

[ZombieArmy]

A poster on a German Pentax forum a Pentax (Hoya/Ricoh) rep told him that the K-30/50 was designed to last only one or two years.

Reps don't know stuff like that. Likely was speaking out of his rear.

[photogem]

I've mentioned this many times before in the numerous and repetitive and redundant discussions on this topic:
A poster on a German Pentax forum a Pentax (Hoya/Ricoh) rep told him that the K-30/50 was designed to last only one or two years.

I love your humour
I guess you've bookmarked this post and can provide us a link...

(If I find such a (important) quote on any forum, I'd bookmark it right away)


As I know this forum (Pentaxians) quite well: I never ever came across there towards any such a post!
Your google or other translator possibly was in error.

A German Ricoh/Hoya representative would lose his job right away.


What is more important/representative: Shutter Live:
Pentax K-30 vs. Pentax K-r vs. Pentax KP - Pentax Camera Comparison - PentaxForums.com
Pentax gave the K-30 100.000 actuations, as they did with the K-r, K-x, K5-series, K7 and now KP!
This number will not be the average within 1 or 2 years.
Over 100 Pentax DSLR with stuck solenoid I have repaired by now.
Of those I had 4 (K30 x1, K50 x1, K-S2 x2) with a higher shuttercount in the region between 20.000 and 27.000.
One K30 above 30.000. But plenty with a shuttercound of under 1000!

Ricoh stopped giving shutter life with the K50/500, K-S1, K-S2 and K70 for a reason
because they quickly noticed they can't predict this high number anymore.
Not because of the shutter itself but of course because of the solenoid!

[photogem]

Reps don't know stuff like that. Likely was speaking out of his rear.

You mean "hot air"?

[photogem]

The judge probably didn’t know, and the Pentax lawyers had no reason to add more confusion to the mix, but the plaintiffs also didn’t have their facts straight.

I second this!
If one reads this article
one can tell right away, that the arguments brought forward by the plaintiff were more or less a joke, particular this one:

The plaintiff Bondick brought the claim over under the Illinois Consumer Fraud and Deceptive Business Practices Act and pointed to the company advertising that the camera’s components would not deteriorate for five years or more. He suggested that the company knew they would break down earlier than that.

as well as this one:

Bondick claims the exposure issue would be covered because Ricoh allegedly offered an “extended warranty” to certain customers complaining of the issue

The plaintiff mixed things up, did not study the problem at all and with stupid arguments dug his own pitfall.

[nonpigliounoshoot]

I always understood warranties in EU countries were 2 years, how did you get 4 years in Italy?

cameras and lenses purchased from the official importer have a 4 year warranty. It's not just for me it's true for everyone in Italy. Two-year dealer warranty applies to all products purchased in Europe, including a washing machine.

Non so quale percentuale dei K-70 avesse problemi con il solenoide, ma era decisamente molto lontano dallo zero.

I can confirm today that I have never read in Italy in the various forums about a problem with the solenoid on the k70. I also followed the various topics for a while and it seems to me that many cases were alleged and not fully ascertained. No one has official data and I have never seen written diagnostic evidence of repairers but only many nicknames that are not always reliable.

Che diavolo è un adattatore per stilo e cosa diavolo fa in un K30?

Yuo say it, is adapter AA, and mine obviously works well.

Per te e per molti altri no, bene. Ma chi non si sentirà in forma per fare la riparazione, è un problema serio.
Il costo per la riparazione in Germania era di € 248, ma ora ... perché alcuni fanno il lavoro di limatura/bordatura, addebitano solo € 148.
Ma a volte vanno male di nuovo!

Italians are more imaginative and far less expensive then.

L'ho menzionato molte volte in precedenza nelle numerose discussioni ripetitive e ridondanti su questo argomento: un poster su un forum Pentax tedesco un rappresentante Pentax (Hoya/Ricoh) gli ha detto che il K-30 /50 è stato progettato per durare solo un o due anni.

evidently he was very badly informed, my k30 is 8 years old and still works.

[photogem]

cameras and lenses purchased from the official importer have a 4 year warranty.

This is Italian FOWA extended warranty (it used to be 5 years)
For Zeiss they give 5 years but Zeiss hardly has problems with failure. I work a lot with Zeiss and know our local Zeiss representative quite well.
I just spoke to him because he knows Zeiss Italy quite well: They just do it with Fowa but they are not obliged!

By the way: If you quote please don't do it (partly) in Italian language. Here we are in an English speaking forum.
I guess you use something like the google translator and mixed translated texts up, so I guess it was by accident.

Anyway: So Italians often have the 4 years FOWA warranty, this explains why you can confirm that:

I can confirm today that I have never read in Italy in the various forums about a problem with the solenoid on the k70.

Because after 4 years:

Italians are more imaginative and far less expensive then.

They just throw it away.
Imaginative and expensive is very relative: If one throws one's camera into the next river, yes, one could call this imaginative and far less expensive as well. I am just joking here.

But you know, I have quite a few contacts to Italy and I think I know some of the mentality quite well.
So it doesn't surprise me at all that one doesn't hear/read anything in Italian forums.

Different to the French, the French forums are full of it, as are the German forums (as well in UK!)

In the German Pentaxian forums many had that problem and wrote about it.
And I myself repaired one for an official representative! Actually the head for repairs!
He didn't trust the official repairs but wanted it to be done with the Japan Solenoid.
I have kept all correspondence about it!

I also followed the various topics for a while

Which topics? For a while is also quite relative: Minutes, hours, days, weeks?
Aside of this very thread I can't find you participating in any of those threads were things were discussed, weighed, inspected, solved etc. in detail.

..and it seems to me that many cases were alleged and not fully ascertained.

Please provide links to "those many cases"!

No one has official data

I appreciate your humour
Do you really think Ricoh would provide us with official data?
Or repairshops?
They would "sink" their reputation into the deep sea like the Italian mafia sunk nuclear waste there
(one could call that cheap and imaginative)

.... and I have never seen written diagnostic evidence of repairers

Which only shows that you did not follow the correct topics/threads at all!
All those who seriously followed all those threads concerning ABF (aperture block failure) know that there had been
enough evidence by official repairers. But we don't need their evidence. We have enough evidence by now
and I am quite sure that "we here" actually helped Ricoh to find the real issue!

Ricoh first thought the fault to be somewere else. Some official repaires later on (with the K70) invented non-existing faults (resistor-chips) but we here in this forum have verified the fault exactly. We don't need any other verification, it is as clear as San Pellegrino
or Smeraldina water!

...but only many nicknames that are not always reliable.

Says nickname "I don't shoot pigs but only lions"? (my interpretation of your nickname)
Sign of helplessness... running out of non existing arguments (because by now you just brough claims but no arguments!)

[reh321]

evidently he was very badly informed, my k30 is 8 years old and still works.

We have been having a running discussion here.

My K-30 is seven years old and I say “My K-30 still works” , but many members dispute that; they say it hasn’t worked in four years.
The issue is what does someone mean by “my K-30 still works”.
Having had two Canon Rebels fail to work after having processor problems, I tend to take a more expansive view.
The shutter of my K-30 still works, and the processor still puts images into the SD card.
However, my K-30 can no longer control the aperture, so I use lenses which can do that.

Incidentally, no one ever claimed that no K-30 or no K-70 still works.
I am sure that some Rebel XT still works - the important thing to me is that mine is now in the dump.
I still use my K-30 on occasion, with old film lenses, but a KP is now my primary camera.